Cost of a sleeve job?

ed cougar · #1 (**permalink**) 11-01-2003, 06:49 PM

Hi, I tore down the 429SCJ today that I got from a race boat, I had to beat the pistons out the engine was seized up water had gotten into the cylinders and sat for 20+ years, 2 cylinders have big craters and need sleeved for sure the rest are pitted and mighnt clean up at .030 I was wondering if sleeving all 8 would be a good thing. It is a DOVE 4 bolt SCJ factory solid cam dual point and all, never been apart before had all ford parts and gaskets.

Clois Harlan · #2 (**permalink**) 11-01-2003, 08:41 PM

My machinist charges at least $50 per cylinder. How is the crank?
My guess is that you may need a lot more than a couple sleeves.

Clois

ed cougar · #3 (**permalink**) 11-02-2003, 12:17 AM

Surprising the rest of the motor is excellent it had very low hours and it would appear the guys kids (at that time in 1978) played gas station and " FILLED HER UP" through the over the transom pipes, thats the only explanation we could come up with being it had been in garage storage (nice garage) all this time. The cylinders whitch had open valves got the worst and the valves also look terrible but the heads will survive. It's the sadest thing I've ever seen. the crank looks great once I got it out, along with the rockers lifter pushrods and cam, the machine surfaced are also great, the rods and bearings all good, other than the piston
and valves the motor would have been turn key, what a shame. It's a 4 bolt DOVE-A 429 SCJ mechanical cam, dual point, 4sp, the pilot bushing still in the crank. All factory ford pieces. I know 2 cylinders need sleeved and 4 need .030 at least to clean up, no. 7 and 8 valves were closed and the cylinders look good! Do you think I should give it up and try to find another 4 bolt block?

vettestr · #4 (**permalink**) 11-02-2003, 08:18 AM

All 8 holes is a no no for sleeves. The deck becomes unstable and % of failure is too much to risk. I will not even sleeve side by side on same bank for that reason even on the most exotic or rare blocks because having to eat $$$ if motor fails, not to mention pissing customer off is not worth it.
Not to say you do not have options. Today all the bore and stroke combos have made parts available to become very creative. Mic. the block and determine how far she will have to go to clean up. Then sonic check to see if block will allow the bore needed. If math works out with or without 1 or maybe 2 holes sleeved then look at cost to do what it will take. Only you know if it makes sense to SAVE this block for money invested. A good machinist can do wonders but do you want to pay the cost? Remember all the exotic stuff is $$$ and will also need a balance job that will need heavy metal at about $150. an inch. Hand grinding the block to allow big stroke clearance is very time consuming and $$ if you pay to get it done.

Keithc8 · #5 (**permalink**) 11-02-2003, 05:38 PM

This block is definitly worth saving. These blocks can go .080 bore and we do it all the time to make 514. this block is plently strong to install eight sleeves if you would like. We have installed all 8 sleeves on every kind of Ford block, just have to know how to do it. If you do not want to fix the block I will buy it from you. Thanks

ed cougar · #6 (**permalink**) 11-02-2003, 06:03 PM

Sell it? It's kinda looking that way, If I had a friend that could do the machine work for me I would keep it but to farm it out is too expensive for me with the cost of sleeves and all. My brother is a machineist a very experienced one at that but he knows nothing about engines, but if I coach him to what needs done I'm sure he can do it. Only thing is I'm not to sure I know how. Is there anything other than an interference fit step the bottom and press it in, then surface it and chamfer? Then of course the bore finish.

PatBuckley · #7 (**permalink**) 11-02-2003, 06:10 PM

Ed-

8 sleeves (if you needed to) is not an issue. There are a number of reasons why I think I would PREFER to have a block with 8 sleeves than one at 30 over....

In fact, my Shelby block has 8 sleeves - and it's aluminum!

Pat

ed cougar · #8 (**permalink**) 11-02-2003, 06:20 PM

To me a completely sleeved engine sounds great restored to standard bore size, despite what I've heard about core shift and bore alighnment I think if done right the bores should end up in the same exact place right? An as far as strength goes? And what about welding or brazeing them in whats up with that?

PatBuckley · #9 (**permalink**) 11-02-2003, 11:07 PM

For cracks? OK until the first time you overheat it. They have a process called stitching that is best for fixing cracked cast iron blocks. It is all pricey though...they charge by the inch.

vettestr · #10 (**permalink**) 11-03-2003, 07:05 AM

Sleeves installed in a cast iron block need to have steps or a shelf cut in bottom of bore to seal and stop the sleeve that is an interferance fit or pressed into the block. This is what retains the sleeve in the block plus the fact you clamp it in place with the head.
All alum. works of art like Pat's Shelby have these cast in place and are not intended to be replaced like say my JP-1 that uses a liner or steel sleeve. You can cut old sleeve out of Pat's block and increase size or bore ( I think 4.375 is max to yield 526 inches ). The catch is a lot of special reinforcement has been done to block to allow these bores. The Shelby is a work of art with 3 massive ribs in valley and a very thick deck so it does not move around.
We change liners in the funny motor all the time as needed but is a $$$ block also. I have run several factory alum. blocks, all have sleeves installed so rings are on steel not the alum of the block but these are cast into block. I ran a 215 and 225 with 25 pounds of boost in a sand rail. What a hoot to drive.
You do not need to weld or braze sleeve in block it relys on crush / clamping on top and a bunch of locktight. My JP-1 uses o-rings on the linner but is a dry block. My Cummins uses shims and o-rings for a wet block.

DAVID GAGNARD · #11 (**permalink**) 11-03-2003, 02:43 PM

I know of a local dirt tracker racer here that races in a top division.... He runs chebbys (sorry),buys brand spanking new bow-tie blocks (Small block),brings them straight to the machinist and has them sleeve all 8 cylinders on a brand new block!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Then orders 16 standard bore sleeves and pistons,claims it is easier when he has trouble,pop in a new sleeve and piston,been doing this for years and he is a top racer in his division....Machinist still can not believe this guy when he brings in a new block for sleeving.

Do not know how a small block bowtie compares to a big block ford when it comes to sleeving,but most blocks can be sleeved in all cylinders..... For a street motor this should be fine.....

David

scottj · #12 (**permalink**) 11-03-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVID GAGNARD

I know of a local dirt tracker racer here that races in a top division.... He runs chebbys (sorry),buys brand spanking new bow-tie blocks (Small block),brings them straight to the machinist and has them sleeve all 8 cylinders on a brand new block!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Then orders 16 standard bore sleeves and pistons,claims it is easier when he has trouble,pop in a new sleeve and piston,been doing this for years and he is a top racer in his division....Machinist still can not believe this guy when he brings in a new block for sleeving.

Do not know how a small block bowtie compares to a big block ford when it comes to sleeving,but most blocks can be sleeved in all cylinders..... For a street motor this should be fine.....

David

I can't believe it either and I race in the highest stockcar division there is on dirt.

I hade a new block damaged by my previous machinist who was not familiar with aluminum blocks. He inadvertantly used the wrong length thread on the headstuds and when he tightened the torque plates down, the studs pulled the threads and a big chunk of the deck out of the block.

The Chevrolet Raceshop provided me with very detailed instructons for removing as well as replacing the sleeves. They insisted that they must be followed exactly to insure the block would be as good as new. They also offered to provide the sleeves for free.

The other option they offered me, and the one that they prefered (in case my new builder was not comfortable with the procedure) was to GIVE me a new aluminum block.

The Chevrolet Raceshop was in no way obligated, or in any way responsible. They just wanted to make sure I would have a dependable piece.

I took the block.

Maybe the iron Bowtie block is alot easier to sleeve, but I can't imagine they just "pop" in.

Scott

djseed · #13 (**permalink**) 11-03-2003, 04:23 PM

You can buy a good used D0VE 4 bolt block on ebay for $1000. It seems to be penny wise and pound foolish to do all the machining and repairing and then have it blow. I think I would take Keith's offer.

FFR428 · #14 (**permalink**) 11-08-2003, 12:45 PM

Here in CT the going rate is $100 a hole. If you really like the block keep it and fix it. If your looking to sell the block price some others first to see where your at. Personally I'd get a quote from Keith and send him the block to repair. Dove 4 bolt blocks are RARE and you have the rest of the engine also so why not keep her and fix it. G.

ed cougar · #15 (**permalink**) 11-08-2003, 02:00 PM

Well today my good friend installed 3 sleeves and bored all 8 to .040 over. no charge! I'm sure glad I kept the block now. Thanks for all your input.