Have I stumped the experts?

Steve Vague · #1 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 06:51 AM

I posted a shorter version of this (Harmonic balancer question) on both this and Factory Five forums. I am still seeking ideas. I apologize for the legnth of this thread, but want to relay as much relevant info as posible.

I am replacing my EFI ('80 302) with carb set up. Prior to removing my old distributor I want to set timing at TDC, #1 (Compression). However the TDC mark on my harmonic balancer is 180 out when #1 is at TDC, and the distributor rotor appears to be severely advanced/or retarded at either or 0 or 180 (it so far off I am not sure) at best. This harmonic balancer is not symmetrical, thicker on the side with "hash mark" (I suspect this may be typical, if not perhaps this is unique as well). Where it "thins out" it has no markings, but this is 180 degrees from "TDC Mark". Any ideas? BTW, I fully realize how unlikely this scenario is! Like, how does this thing even run? But it did! I also realize that I can set my new distributor at the proper position. However, before I do that I want to understand WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON?

Since I am replacing so many items in this conversion I really want to reduce the unknowns.

I have tried to verify the identify of the engine, (just in case it is not as represented to me) and to figure out why it is such a strange bird. This car has so many unusual emmisions and related factory TBI sensors (for a 1980 vintage) that I am baffled! The only numbers on the block are (at the right front corner of engine block, #17 on top of #80). On the top of block under intake manifold, (#16 and #80). My Haynes Engine Book does not
reference these markings.
Has anybody else ever experienced a similar scenario?
Thanks in advance for your input.

blykins · #2 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 07:00 AM

Steve, if the car was running before, the only thing I can recommend is getting some timing tape and taping over the tick marks on the balancer...then just set it to zero, and forget about it. I wonder if someone had replaced the balancer with one that "worked" but really doesn't....

I'm gonna ask a stupid question...are you for sure it's on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke...and here's another stupid one....you know #1 cylinder is on the passenger side right?

Ozona · #3 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:13 AM

Two things and neither have anything to do with FFR.

1. The harmonic balancer spun. This happens on used harmonic balancers. It won't keep the engine from running, just keep you from properly changing the timing. Not the best for the longevity of the motor.

2. You're considering the front cylinder on the driver's side bank as #1, it's not. It's the front one on the passenger side.

Regards,

Bill

Tom Kirkham · #4 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:17 AM

Is it possible that you have mixed match balancer and timing chain cover? The early 302 had the timing marks on one side and the later 5.0 had the timing marks on the other side. So it would be very easy for someone to change the timing chain cover for an early style so you could use v-belts instead of the serpentine belt. Only a wild guess.

Steve R · #5 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:27 AM

Steve,
302's came with water pumps that had the radiator water inlet on the driver's side or the pass side. As a result, there were 2 different timing pointers and harmonic balancers. One for the left side, one for the right. My guess is your pointer is from one, and the balancer is from the other. Which side has the timing pointer on your engine? and which side does the lower radiator hose go into the pump? post some pictures.
Steve

Steve R · #6 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:29 AM

I don't type fast enough! Tom beat me to it! @#$%&5$!!!!

kountzecobra · #7 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:34 AM

There are actually 3 different TDC positions for small block Fords. Some of the newer aftermarket dampners have all 3 sets of timing marks and can get a bit confusing at startup!

Steve Vague · #8 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:35 AM

Thanks all,

#1 confirmed at TDC, and passenger side, front. Tom, interesting, but this being an Early V belt motor, have you seen this mix match previously? Timing reference pointer is a sheet metal attachment, not really part of timing cover.
Spun balancer..HMM. That makes for a potential pain in the...
Is this easily removed without puller?
Thanks again!

Steve R · #9 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:39 AM

Steve,
A few pictures would be worth a thousand words.....

Steve Vague · #10 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:40 AM

Steve you type faster than I do! Pointer on passenger side, lower hose inlet on drivers side.
Thanks

Steve R · #11 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:41 AM

David S,
I went through this with Paul Risch's engine

Steve R · #12 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 08:44 AM

Steve,
Does your timing cover have a boss for a mechanical fuel pump?
Steve

gsharapa · #13 (**permalink**) 11-23-2003, 06:49 PM

I had a simular problem on my 351 and it turned out I had the wrong timing pointer for the balancer. There were two different pointers one for the 3 hole balancer and a different one for he 4 hole balancer. You also should check TDC on the # 1 piston to find out if you are any where zero on the balancer as suggested prior. I am assuming you are using a new balancer. If you have the old Ford one with the rubber casing after time they end up moving off center and timing is impossible!

Steve Vague · #14 (**permalink**) 11-24-2003, 05:36 AM

Thanks again every one!
Yes timing cover has fuel pump boss, and balancer is a four bolt. As I have tried to consolidate TDC at aither left or right side of the engine, (cannot be done) and since I have no reason to believe the harmonic balancer has ever been replaced, I have to assume it has either spun or degraded. Either way it must removed and inspected.

I am anticipating thiis procedure to be a real chore. Do any of the large chain auto parts stores loan or rent pullers and presses? If this has spun, is there any danger the force needed to remove damper from crank will damage the crankshaft?

I am just thankful I thought to check this out prior to pulling the distributor..and to have the collective knowledge of this forum! I will report back after I determine true cause, or if I am back at square 1!

Thanks again.

blykins · #15 (**permalink**) 11-24-2003, 06:46 AM

Steve, when you take the crank pulley off, can you see the key still in the keyway?

Most large chains will have balancer pullers available for rent...if not, they're cheap anyway.

sharpe 1 · #16 (**permalink**) 11-24-2003, 06:55 AM

O'Reilly auto parts is a good place to get those types of tools.
Their rentials are you buy the tool and when your finished you take it back and they give you your money back. Good policy.
Hope there is one in your area.

trularin · #17 (**permalink**) 11-24-2003, 10:40 AM

Holy Toledo, this is wild.

Here:

This is absolute
1. remove the valve cover from the driver's side of the engine.
2. Rotate engine until the piston is at top with BOTH valves closed.
3. Mark timing indicator to balancer.
4. install positive stop device in spark plug hole and rotate backwards until it stops.
5. Mark Balancer only.
6. Rotate engine crank forwards until it stops. Mark balancer only at that point.
7. Measure distance from first mark to second mark. divide by two and measure to that point.
8. THAT IS TDC.
9. Make everything align with that.

Guys, read this over and make sure I screwed it up.

Thanks!

Steve Vague · #18 (**permalink**) 11-24-2003, 11:03 AM

"install positive stop device in spark plug hole and rotate" backwards until it stops.

Thanks Trularin,

You are not concerned with damage the positive stop can create? I would have thought dial indicator here, but your way sure sounds easier, and less costly since I don't own one!

I have been using a less than positive stop, while trying to figure out who I could borrow a proper DI from!

Regards,
Steve

blykins · #19 (**permalink**) 11-24-2003, 11:16 AM

Either one will work Steve...it's hard to find dial indicator bases that will allow you to finagle them around to mount and shoot down a spark plug hole. I use a positive stop from Jegs...but you could use anything. It's not gonna dent/scratch the piston...don't worry.

n559br · #20 (**permalink**) 11-24-2003, 11:39 AM

Steve,

I had a similar problem when putting in my engine. I bought the balancer from FORD and saw a hash mark. So I of course used my whiteout to mark it. However 180 away was where 0deg was on the balancer. The degreed section from 0-30BTDC was engraved and hard to see. Once I used the white out on the 10 degree increments the timing problem was solved. When you pull the wheel I'm sure you will find the same issue.

ben