Oil priming...Part deux

[Fox]

When I last checked in, I was priming my 302 before starting it for the first time. Problem was that I was getting 25 psi and no oil at the rocker arms as seen with the valve covers off. I was using a drill to rotate the pump shaft.

After some input/help here, I drained the oil, removed the pan and checked the pick-up clearance. It seemed to clear the bottom of the pan by about 1/4" or so. I had a local welder remove 3/8" from the pick-up down spout and now the clearance is just over 1/2".

I also checked the gaskets and I removed the the pump. All visually looked sound so I put it back together and slowly ran the drive shaft with a drill and had quite a bit of suction.

I removed the oil filter and saw that it had oil in it and I saw no metal debris.

I put on a new filter, secured the pump and pick-up, remounted the pan and filled it with 8 qts (7qt pan + dry filter) of 10W/30.

Ran the drill (in reverse) and still 25 psi and dry push rods. What the #*!(*.

I get the sense that if I had a drill with more RPM's it might do the trick. Given that others have done the same thing and gotten 50+ psi, it doesn't seem logical that it is a drill problem. I bet I am getting about 1000 rpm's under load at the drill, therefore about 2000 crank rpm's. I've been told that it should be enough to move oil to the top of the block...right?

Rick mentioned a by-pass valve. How would I tell if it was stuck open? The pump seemed to be o.k., but is there another way to check besides the visual and + suction?

Others have mentioned the front block plugs. I really don't think they are missing. Would that leak be enough to keep the push rods from being lubed?

I appreciate any input...

-John

[lovehamr]

John, I wouldn't worry about the drill motor's speed. I've seen over 25# of pressure on a gauge and oil in the valve train using a quarter inch speed handle and socket, and just about any drill should do better than that. This is only me, but I'd be tearing the thing down checking bearings, galley plugs, etc. Like we in the south say; Sumpm ain't rite! Steve

P.S. come to think about it, why don't you try the 1/4" speed handle and socket thing, if you don't feel much resistance try another pump. Just an idea.

[SCOBRAC]

Your bypass valve is in the pump. 500 rpm at the drill should get you oil at the rockers. It would just take awhile. I still think you got a bad oil pump.

[ENTDOC]

But if he has pressure,the pump has to be working and he should have oil to all parts of the motor unless something is blocked. chuck

[Fox]

Well after some thought and a little help from those that know more than I do, I pulled the water pump and timing cover and low and behold the galley plugs ARE in place. Back to the drawing board.

So...Michael you may be right.

Tomorrow I will redrain the oil, pull the pan and pump and check to see if the by-pass valve is stuck open or somewhere between open and closed.

If I am needing to replace the pump, any comments on high volume vs. standard?

A previous post described that the HV might not be the best choice in the long run. That the roller cam shaft and steel gear used on the distrubitor are not up to the forces required with the HV pump.

All .02 appreciated.

-John

[blykins]

John....one more thing....there's a plug (like a small freeze plug), I think at the back of the block under the intake manifold....kinda in the lifter galley.....is that one installed? You won't get any oil pressure if it's left out.

When I assembled my engine, I primed the oil pump with a battery drill.....Craftsman 18 or 19V drill.....I got oil coming out of the pushrods with it.

[Excaliber]

I'm not sure but I think there is a difference between high pressure and high volume pumps. I be concerned with a high pressure, but not to much concern with a high volume pump.

...I wonder if the matter is as simple as waiting long enough with the drill running to get the pressure up?

The main engine parts that have a big impact of oil pressure are the main bearing clearance and the cam shaft bearing clearance. Not at all easy to check cam bearings, but you could use plasitgauge to bal park one of the main bearings for clearance.

[blykins]

Good point.....I do remember it taking an awfully long time to get the oil to the top.

[Rick Parker]

If you disassemble the pump, reassemble it with vasaline on the gears or perhaps assembly lube. Fill the filter with oil before running attempting to prime with the drill motor, it should have oil to the top end within 10-20 second max.

Rick

[sllib]

John;
I paid double price for a blue-printed pump and had to return it, so a bad pump could be your problem. Also, I've heard that, unless you're racing, a HV pump is too much for a 302. If you decide to run it you might consider drilling out the dist. shaft and gear and installing a 3/16" roll pin like the GM's use to handle the extra load.
Bill Stradtner

[c6ae]

Hi,
I usually lurk, LOL rarely post. A question comes to mind here. Is this a solid lifter engine?
Jake R.

[Fox]

Hey Jake,

No, I am using hydraulic roller lifters. What are you thinking?

-John

[c6ae]

I’m just thinking out loud here, but maybe there are some mix-matched components. It’s only a guess.
From your description, I think that you have oil pressure at the pump, it’s just not showing at the rocker arms. It can take a while to work it up there. Perhaps a remote oil cooler adapter or oil thermostat could be installed backwards? There are flow check valves in those. If you can prove the pressure at the filter (just remove it and spin the pump by hand, it should flow) you will be ok with the pump. You can delete the oil cooler for trials. I have primed reluctant pumps by filling the crankcase above the pump to completely submerge it, turning the pump by hand, then draining oil back out to the correct level. Again, it sounds like you have pressure, it’s just not showing oil at the top end. Hope this helps.
Jake

[CCX33911]

Get one or two quart bucket. Remove pan. Run drill with bucket full of oil under pickup and a big drain pan under engine. While pressure is at max, look at leakage rates. There should only be heavy drips to small streams coming out of bearings. If you see a large leak pooring out oil then find where it is comming from, etc. Those pumps flow a lot of oil so it would have to be a big leak. You can buy an adjustable pressure pump from Melling (racing style pump),

[Steve R]

John,
I have been following this thread. I assume you have the oil pressure sender installed into the threaded hole just aft of the fuel pump.(see photo). If you remove the sender and try to prime the engine the oil should squirt/ gush out of this hole. If it does, the oil pump is most likely doing it's job. After reinstalling the sender, I would try to prime the $hit out of it with a drill motor while having someone turn the crankshaft with a braker bar or wrench. It should eventually get oil up through the push rods to the rockers. If not, I would remove a rocker arm and then it's push rod to check if there are any obstructions. Upon looking at your photo gallery, I noticed something unusual. You stated you are using roller lifters. The following photo supports this. What has me confused is: the lifter guides seem to be missing in this photo. Did you subsequently install them?
Steve

[Excaliber]

Could you PLEASE re-size that pic to 640x480 or something smaller!!!!

[Fox]

Steve,

Yes, the guides and the retainer were installed. They are just not shown in the picture. Great pick up. (No pun intended)

I really appreciate all the extra effort to help with this. Family obligations have kept me away from the garage this weekend but I will have a little time off at Thanksgiving.

I will make it a point to keep everyone up-to-date.

-John

[blykins]

Fox, did you make sure the plug is installed at the back of the block? You can almost see it in the picture above....it should be back there where that little red thing is sticking up above the block.

[Steve R]

Blykins,

Holy $hit! Batman, I think you figured it out. Looky-a-here: Whats missing from this picture??

[Steve R]

John,
Damn!, me: "Du- maas", Blykins: "Jeenyusss". Hmmm, "no oil to the rockers upon priming" I think most of us would have just started her up and let her go to the dogs. Good catch!! let us know what you do.
Steve