knock off adaptor installation

[CobraV8]

I'm about to install the adaptors for my Vintage Wheels rims.

However the front wheels studs are a little too long, they protrude through the ends of the drive pin lugs. Cutting the studs where the threads end (arrow) would allow the correct installation of the drive pin lugs.




I don't believe there are any drawbacks in doing so. Am I wrong and could this cause problems?


Thanks,


Simon

[mickmate]

That won't hurt a thing. Off with their ends! I'd put a cutoff wheel in my 4 inch grinder and go nuts. The Pferrd brand works well for me. If you have an old nut (you'll have a whole set), screw that on before cutting and it will act as a die nut after you clean the burrs off and unscrew it.

[kbisconti]

I just put a old bolt on mine then used a 4" cut off wheel to cut the lugs. It worked good. I then cut a 12 mm elen wrench and JB Welded it into a 12mm socket to tork the Vintage lug on. Ken

[CobraV8]

Alright then I'll do it this way.

Any more advices for mounting the adaptors besides using red loctite on the wheels studs?

[CobraV8]

Originally posted by kbisconti


I just put a old bolt on mine then used a 4" cut off wheel to cut the lugs. It worked good. I then cut a 12 mm elen wrench and JB Welded it into a 12mm socket to tork the Vintage lug on. Ken

I did it exactly as Ken described and everything worked fine until I tried to torque the lug nuts.
According to the instructions from Vintage Wheels 80 ft lbs of torque are required for 1/2" thread size wheel studs, but at about 70 ft lbs the allen wrench begun to round off the lugs




The lugs distorted so much the wheel wouldn't slip over them anymore.

I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong. The allen wrench end seemed a little loose in the lugs, is it really a metric size?

Also the material the lugs are made off seems very soft like mild steel, I wonder why they're not made of heat treated steel.

Does any of the other companies (Trigo, PS engineering etc) sell lugs made of stronger material? Are they interchangeable?

Simon

[Alex Evonosky]

Simon,
I am not familar with the Vintage set up as yet but I will be watching this real close as I am about ready to order my Vintage wheels. Mickmate has his and will probably answer your question.
After looking at the pictures, it almost looks like the stud was still a little long and when tight, the wrench was not able to seat all the way into the nut.
Really hard looking at pictures.

[Rick Parker]

To attain the torque values required without damaging the nuts try putting anti sieze on the threads and the tapered surfaces. The studs should be sized (cut to length) so they allow full engagement of the hex wrench. Be sure the wrench is the correct size (metric or inch size?) I think 12 mm is too small. This was discussed MANY times 2-3 years ago and a lot of bandwith was utilized trying to find a solution. If you attempt to assemble the pieces dry this is the result, at this point no alternative but to obtain replacement nuts.


PS: Noting where you are located there is one option. Put the nuts in a lathe, cut of the area down to the threads and Heliarc weld a nut on the end. Just be sure the stud doesn't bottom out before it is fully torqued. An OEM design with an external hex (similar to a nut) on the end would be a better design anyway.

Rick

[CobraV8]

Originally posted by Rick Parker


An OEM design with a hex on the end would be a better design anyway.

That's what I've been thinking too. It seems like the lug nuts are first drilled and tapped completely through before the allen head is machined into the end. This leaves only six small edges as points of contact for the allen wrench. I made this cutaway pic with Solid Edge to show what I mean:



If the lugs weren't drilled& tapped completely but only to the point where the allen head will be machined there'll be more area of contact with the allen wrench:



This way the force applied by the wrench will be distributed more even and the tension in the material should be reduced. Just an idea, of course. They gotta have their reasons why they don't make them this way...

BTW:does anyone know what size of allen wrench must be used for installation?

[Rick Parker]

Simon: If your sleeve nuts are similar to the top illustration a hex wrench may not be the correct tool, they need a larger internal surface to bare on like the bottom drawing, not just the corners.
In looking at the photo of the sleeve nuts, the wall thickness appears to be thicker than mine.

The sleeve nuts that I have required a 1/2" hex. Use the lubricant, It will help immensely. I torque them in 3 steps; initially tignten them all to 30 ft lbs, then about 50-55 and finally to 70 ft lbs. Use a star pattern. Use anti sieze on the threads and tapered surface.


Rick

[mickmate]

Mine are the M12x1.75 thread and the wrench is a 12mm allen. The holes measure 0.480" across the flats and 12mm equates to 0.472". I also noticed the taper on the bottom of yours, mine are flat?? Turning the OD may be an option but I would see if you can get an allen wrench that will fit first. You may have to hex broach the holes first. That not being feasible I'd call Bob and get some new ones shipped out the quickest way you could get them there. If you're using the M12 thread I could send you mine and the wrench for them if that will help get you rolling quicker. Nice drawing of them!

[CobraV8]

mickmate, thank you for offering your help, but I need lugs with 1/2" UNF threads (Ford wheel studs). I'll order 5 new lugs to replace the ones that got damaged.

I just tested the fit of the 12mm allen wrench with one of the good lugs, seems like 12mm is the right size:

Originally posted by Rick Parker


Simon: If your sleeve nuts are similar to the top illustration a hex wrench may not be the correct tool, they need a larger internal surface to bare on like the bottom drawing, not just the corners.

That's how the good ones look:



What kind of tool could be the right one?

I also wonder why it's only possible to torque them without damage when anti seize is used on the threads. According to the installation instructions you should use Loctite for safety. There must be a way to torque them to 80 ft lbs with Loctite on the threads because that's the manufactorer's instructions. They wouldn't sell it if it wasn't tested before...or would they?

[DonC]

Simon:
For what it's worth I think you're going to have trouble getting any kind of high torque on those nuts machined the way they are. You've only got the smallest of contact surfaces for the allen wrench. The smaller the contact area the less stress it will take before the material around the contact point fails.
Were the opening full hex formed, as in your illustration above, you could probably get any reasonable about of torque on it you'd like.
If it was me I'd be looking for another supplier of the adapter.
DonC

[Rick Parker]

Another suggestion to prevent the OD from expanding is to get a split collar and install it on the lug nut as it is tightened, then remove it. Again if you will utilize an anti sieze compound it will reduce the galling and metal transfer as it is tightened. I can't say it any plainer.

Rick

[mylesdw]

Originally posted by Rick Parker


Again if you will utilize an anti sieze compound it will reduce the galling and metal transfer as it is tightened. I can't say it any plainer.

Rick

I don't understand how using an anti-sieze compound on the threads will affect the torque applied to the allen socket. This will surely always get exactly what you set the wrench to, the only difference is how far the sleeve turns before that torque is achieved.

[CobraV8]

I ordered the replacement lug nuts today. I also checked the fit of a 1/2" allen wrench: it's too big. However the 12mm wrench sits pretty loose in the nuts.
There's no size available in between 1/2" and 12mm.


The wheels look great and the adaptors are solidly machined, however I'm not very happy with the lug nuts to say the least.

Hopefully my second attempt to install the adaptors will produce a better result. I ordered 10 lug nuts, 5 more than I need. Just in case...

[Rick Parker]

The main problem with this application is the type of material the nuts are being made from, most likely common mild steel. If someone were to use a better material ($) it would eliminate the expansion issue, although I believe the flats should be machined externally (like a 5/8 hex nut) to eliminate the problem entirely.

Rick

[TC Cobra]

V8,

I would file/grind the 1/2" wrench to fit snugly in the nuts.

Sounds like you're just going to repeat the damage if you use the 12mm one.

Just a thought...
Dwain

[Rick Parker]

Scroll down to the illustration of the Knock off & adapter. That is the nut design I am describing. Much better design, same vendor??? Vintage?? Make your choice...............

Rick


http://www.cobracountry.com/vintage/home.html

[CobraV8]

Now things starting to get a a little strange. I sent all my e-mails to vintagewheel@aol.com, that's the adress from Rick's link so the same people must have gotten them.

However I took a second closer look at the pictures on www.vintagewheelsus.com (Vintage Wheels homepage where I ordered my wheels), and to my surprise the lug nuts there are also the hex head design:



Why did they send me this crap when better lug nuts are available and even pictured on their homepage?

[Rick Parker]

They are one of the advertisers on the LH vertical banner of this page.

Rick