Starter problems....

[Xavier]

When I purchased my engine from a profesional builder he through in a OEM $30 Autozone starter. I new I would upgrade later, but I noticed the starter's pinion would not engage the fly wheel when mounted. I belive it has the offset for an automatic transmission, which I do not have. Of course this was all checked after the bell housing was on, and I wish I checked everything before hand. The starter was a DL3185 which from Autozone specs is a stock Ford Galaxy replacement, which is where my block is from. Knowing that I would have to eventually upgrade anyhow, I called Powermaster and they recommended the Powermaster 9603 for my application.

The specs for the application are the following;
Optima Red Top Battery 9002-02 (1 ga battery leads a cut off then to the solenoid)
Lakewood 15202 bell housing
164 tooth flywheel in a 351w w/10.5:1 compression ratio
I have a 4 gauge ground wire from the engine block to the frame.
TKO 500

After I finally got my engine timed correctly, I started it ran it for about 20 minutes for the break in period and turned it off. I try to start it again, and nothing, not any engine turn over at all. I just hear the remote starter solenoid clicking over. Measure 12v everywhere, check the voltage on the solenoid, check the battery, make sure no wires were burned up from the original start and I can find nothing wrong. I put the battery on the small motorcycle trickle charger I have (12v@6amp) and leave it on the battery for a day or so and try again. Nothing happens. Pull it out and have the battery tested at Autozone, everything they say is good. 14v at 4.8amps sitting in their tester is a brand new battery. I tried the old rubber mallet trick on the sarter too, nothing...

At this conclusion, I can only assume the starter is bad, manufacturer defect. I called Powermaster, told them the story and replaced with a new one. I noticed the diffrence between the new and the old was the pinion in the new one was much tighter, it took much more strength to pull out of the starter. Other than that, it looked. No burning smell, no electrical smell, the pinion looked brand new. No abnormal wear. Flywheel teeth perfect. I put the new starter on, same as last time. This time wrapping a heat bearier around it, although I think it is uncessary for the distance from my headers, what the hell...Also, this time, unlike last time, I used the spacer that came with the starter based on Powermasters recommendation. Maybe the pinion was staying engaged to the flywheel while running and that is what ruined the starter...

Again, same as before tuning the carb, I ran the engine for about 20 min. It started on the first crank with no problem, and this was last weekend.

But again, I tried to start it today, same issues as before repeated all over again. No start, good battery, good solenoid, I can only conclude, bad starter due to something I am doing wrong. I can only assume the pinion gear is staying in contact with the flywheel whilest the engine is running, ruining the starter....or am I wrong and how to fix? Any advice?

[Excaliber]

Starter drive staying engaged won't turn the starter, it will 'freewheel' and may damage the starter drive itself. If the starter would engage you would hear it spinning, even if the drive itself does not engage the flywheel.

How's the ground from the starter back to the battery? Typical would be, starter grounds to engine, engine grounds to negative on battery terminal. My negative terminal is attached directly at a bell housing bolt.

[Xavier]

I understand what you are saying about the "freewheel"; but what if the pinion (for some reason) stayed engaged ON the flywheel while the motor is running. If the starter was "freewheeling", it would have never started to begin with. This was the problem on the engine builders OEM starter. But if the pinion got stuck for some reason, on the fly wheel (while the motor is running) and could not retract I would imagine it would not be a good thing. But hell, I am guessing. All I do know is that if it free-wheeled, it would have never started to begin with. Common denominator (from what I can see) is engine starts then running the engine somehow kills the starter...without anything else changing.

Also, on the ground; I see your point, but if the ground was bad - why would it have started on the first crank to begin with? I have a good 4ga battery terminal from front of clean paint-free engine block to clean paint-free frame, star-washered and bolted. My battery is in the trunk, tough to get another wire back there from engine.

[Excaliber]

Assuming the starter drive hung up at some point, AFTER the hangup it may well never engage again. But I just don't think that would 'burn up' the starter.

Good ground is a funny thing, might work when cold, not when hot. My buddys FFR wouldn't start, stranded on the road. I went to help, hooked up jumper cables, nothing! Checked his ground, battery to frame, frame to engine ground, looked good and always worked before. I moved the ground side of the jumper cable to the FRAME instead of the battery, started right up! Turns out the ground terminal battery connection at the battery was bad, all though it sure LOOKED good. Now THAT was a head scratcher.

[Xavier]

Geeez, that leaves me with more questions then answers...Mine is ran the same way - battery ground to rear frame, block to front frame. If the battery was bad, test would fail. Weather here has been miserably consistant for the last couple of weeks, 40's to 60'sF.

I think you are right about the pinion, if it got caught I can not see it burning up anything. Maybe hurting it mechanically though. Hell I am perplexed...We need to get more people on this thread. Call your friends...

[Tommy]

Xavier -
A temporary jumper cable from your battery ground to the engine would allow you to determine whether or not the ground is your problem.

[Ron61]

Ok, for one thing if the starter wasn't disengaging, it is very likely you would not only hear it but you would be able to see marks on the teeth of it and the flywheel.
This time when you remove the starter, before doing anything else, hook it up and see if it tries to turn or kick the pinion out like it should to engage the flywheel. With it out and you trying it, if nothing happens than measure some voltages to be sure they are correct and at the right places. A remote starter switch will work well to do this. I have done it with a starter laying on the bench and a good ground ran to it.
Also try turning the starter pinion gear with your hand before trying the above and see if it turns easily. By doing the above with the starter out, you can easily see if it is trying to turn and kick the pinion out to engage the flywheel. If it doesn't, then you have a problem such as Ernie described with the starter drive. And he is correct about the grounds. That is why when you have it out, make sure that you have it grounded to a good ground.

Ron

[Xavier]

Guys I have done all you requested; here is what I did.

First I went down to the car and cleaned all of the grounded surfaces on the frame, engine and battery and retightened. Nothing. Then, I have a terminal strip mounted behind my dash for all of my ground wires, the terminal has an 8ga wire running to the negative side of the battery, I took another 8ga wire to from this terminal connection to the mounting bolt on the starter (at this time leaving it on the engine). Nothing. I took the starter off and played with the pinion gear, I think it is definitely mechanical toast. There is slop in it, it is very loose, and I remember originally it was very tight, very hard to pull out and even spin. Now you can feel something loose in side, so for arguments sake I think it is toasted. It does not spin, nor does the pinion come out.

I pulled out the starter and left the ground wire to my terminal strip. It engages sometimes, sometimes not, but if I put my hand out it, I belive it is really weak. I can not see it turning the engine over...it sounded bad. Clacking noise.

I am a newbee here, so I want to make sure I am right. When you engage the starter two things happen; first your pinion gear comes out coming in contact with the flywheel, then spins correct? Well if I am looking at the distand of the flywheel to the backing plate (where the starter mounts) and the offset of both the original OEM starter (that did not work) and the offset of the Powermaster, I would come to the conclusion that the pinion gear for the powermaster would be in contact all of the time. I should have seen this earlier, but another lesson learned, I assumed the Powermaster tech new exactly what he was talking about. I never took another look.

Take look at these pics, tell me what you think. By looking at the mounting plate and the current position of the pinion gear, the pinion gear would be coming in contact with the flywheel all of the time. So.....if my theory is correct the OEM should have worked, I guess back to the OEM...SO the Powermaster website and tech is wrong, but why? And now, what if I can not get the damn OEM to work? I guess I could go to the small block forum and see what others are using.

[Excaliber]

I'm stumped! Starter engaged, drive hung up, starter could not TURN, burned up the starter?

Man you would think you could SMELL it if that happened...

[Xavier]

No, I think it is starter engaged, pinion is ALREADY on flywheel. Pinion offset is sitting on flywheel when the car is running, when flywheel is turning so is pinion. The car flywheel is spinning with the pinion. So it wasn't so much, "hung up" as it is the wrong offset to the flywheel (see OEM versus powermaster offset). The pinion wasn't meant to be connected to the engine and running with the engine all of the time. After 20 minutes, massive mechnical damage...if it was mechanical damge, you would not smell a thing.

All makes sense, but there are many 351w's, many with Powermaster starters. What is different about my combo that made this fail?

[Excaliber]

I see what you mean. While the drive would freewheel for a while, eventually it would tend to 'seize up' due to heat or just plain mechanical failure and then could damage the starter motor itself.

Now the starter WILL NOT spin until the drive is fully extended. If the drive CANNOT be fully extended because the shaft or the drive has been damaged the starter won't spin. The starter shaft is the tip of the starter armature, if the shaft is damaged, the starter is effectivly ruined.

While you might be able to pull the drive out manually (your fingers or pliers or something) being PUSHED out by the starter is different thing. Unless the shaft is nice and smooth it could easily hang up 'half way' there. That would explain why sometimes the starter works (out of the car) and sometimes it doesn't. I bet the drive is NOT fully extending.

[Rick Parker]

All Starters require clearance between the flywheel and the pinion gear while in static position. It would appear that this is lacking in your installation. I think the incorrect nose piece is being used in your application. .062 seems to be a common measurment.

http://www.powermastermotorsports.co...torqueShim.pdf

If you go to http://www.tiltonracing.com/content....ist2&id=31&m=s they have several illustrations of the nose pieces for their products. You can see various depths for different applications and you can get an idea of what must be accomplished.

[Xavier]

After alot of thinking and drawing templates of the starter mounting position and looking at the pinion gear this is what I think has happend, or will need to. The Lakewood bellhousing I have, the one that came with the engine, according to the Lakewood website was not for my application. Although it bolts on with the tranny and clutch in place with no problem, with backing plate, I always wondered why they said it would not work, or was not for the application. Will get back to this later....

The mounting position on both the OEM that failed to work, and the Powermaster that I had problems with are exactly the same. The pinion gear, as you can see in the pic, is of a different position. One is 3/8" another 3/4". Take a look at the pinion position and you will see the Powermaster (on the right) sticks out much farther, thus as soon as you mount it, it is coming in contact to the flywheel, thus ruining your starter the first (and only) time you start your engine. Whether the gear comes out or not, it is fully touching the flywheel. I would have to put about 3/8" of shims to correct this, which obviously can not be done.

So if the OEM was the shorter offset why didn't it work when installed? Although it has the correct pinion offset, and works correctly, it has a smaller diameter pinion then the Powermaster, thus is meant for a flywheel with more teeth. Although it engages correctly with the right offset, because of its diameter it will never reach the flywheel (left to right).

Which is where the bellhousing comes in. If the "correct" bellhousing would have been purchased, I am certain the technically "correct" Powermaster I have would have worked, but now I have to order the "wrong" one for it to work correctly on the "wrong" bellhousing. Both of which will work together. I need the current starter from Powermaster, just with a shorter pinion offset. Same mount, type, etc, just a different offset.

So in short, the offset of the pinion gear was wrong on the Powermaster, and I just have to get another one with the shorter offset. The one that is used with my Lakewood bellhousing.

Thus another chapter is open and closed in the Cobra build story and the lesson (one alreay learned) is buy the parts yourself, do not let someone figure it out for you, even if they say they have. Do your own investigation and buy the "correct" stuff yourself, even if it costs more up front, because you may save $167 in a starter and God knows how much time on the internet typing long, long replys...

[Ron61]

Xavier,

Good luck and it sounds as if you have finally found the problem. I guess in your case two wrongs do make a right.

Ron

[trularin]

Had someone ask for help on something like this, but he had the solinoid engaged the entire time the engine ran. Ate the nose of the starter.

I know if you get the wrong starter the clearances are off. The ones for an automatic are not the same as a standard.

Let us know what you find.

[bkozlow]

Xavier,

I just looked at the Power Master web site and all small blocks and 351W are set for 157 tooth flywheel not you 164.

billK