Here we go again? Roush

[209]

Someone needs to explain to me why Roush 427w crate engines eat so much oil? Mine is #795 and up to 4000 miles used 2 qts per 1000. The last 500 used 2 qts. Back to the installer for warranty work and he discovered #7 and 8 with verticle scoring in those two cylinders only. Back to Roush and it's been about two months(guessing). I'm no expert but it seems these motors aren't highly stressed even though it's over 500 hp. How hard is it to build a motor and have the rings seat? Apparently kinda tough. Has anyone heard of Craft's motors puking oil? Seems Craft will get my money next time! 209

[Rick Parker]

Long rods & stroke may have wrist pin in the oil ring lands, similar to 347 conversion of a 302. Just a guess.

[PANAVIA]

IMHO Pistons. the wrong pistons. or they are not breaking in properly.

-- this has more to do with the Oil available and less with the machinist.

[STEVE-O]

Originally Posted by 209

Someone needs to explain to me why Roush 427w crate engines eat so much oil? Mine is #795 and up to 4000 miles used 2 qts per 1000. The last 500 used 2 qts. Back to the installer for warranty work and he discovered #7 and 8 with verticle scoring in those two cylinders only. Back to Roush and it's been about two months(guessing). I'm no expert but it seems these motors aren't highly stressed even though it's over 500 hp. How hard is it to build a motor and have the rings seat? Apparently kinda tough. Has anyone heard of Craft's motors puking oil? Seems Craft will get my money next time! 209

209, I had a Roush 402 and it did exactly the same thing! A quart of oil every couple of hundred miles. I ended up sending it back under warranty and whatever they did, it doesnt use any oil now. Just the hassle of getting it removed, shipped back to them and then re-installed.
Yes they fixed it but I agree with you, most engines are not overly stressed and one would think that Roush, someone who deals with performance engines/parts all the time would get it right. My car probably isnt driven that much harder than my daily driver and even if it is driven hard, the engine should be able to take it.
Maybe they have some kind of in-house training program going on or something.
I'm also wondering how good the Craft engines are or even ones from Enginefactory.

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by 209

Someone needs to explain to me why Roush 427w crate engines eat so much oil? Mine is #795 and up to 4000 miles used 2 qts per 1000. The last 500 used 2 qts. Back to the installer for warranty work and he discovered #7 and 8 with verticle scoring in those two cylinders only. Back to Roush and it's been about two months(guessing). I'm no expert but it seems these motors aren't highly stressed even though it's over 500 hp. How hard is it to build a motor and have the rings seat? Apparently kinda tough. Has anyone heard of Craft's motors puking oil? Seems Craft will get my money next time! 209

My Roush 402SR/TW uses little to no oil. I put a little over a 1,000 miles on my car since the last oil change, and it's still full.

As STEVE-O mentioned, you should initiate the warranty process with Roush ASAP. If you bought your engine through a distributor/installer, that's the best place to start (let them coordinate the warranty details with Roush).

[csx4910]

Everyone should also keep in mind that if the engine is requested to go back to Roush, the owner has to pay for shipping both ways even if under warranty (eefective Jan 1, 2010)
Ron

[Excaliber]

I have always been of the opinion that a 427W is over stressed the minute it's put together. Oh sure it is common number, just not one I would ever personally go for. Just to much bore and stroke in that tiny block for my liking. I'd take it to maybe 402-408, MAX, if that far.

...but maybe I'm just being paranoid, don't think so though based on the reports of so many problems with a number of 427W's built by anyone, not just Roush. Most recent example I personally know of was a blown head gasket, (Roush 427W motor, by the way).

[olddog]

If you start with an aftermarket block at 4.125 bore and only go 4.0 on the stroke, I think you should be fine. Same stroke as a 408 with a 4" overbore.

The dirt track boys are running 430 inch SB chevy's with a shorter deck than a Windsor. They are running them hard and turning them up 7K and more.

A local fellow holds his own with a 347 ford. He likes the lighter engine.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by 209

Back to the installer for warranty work and he discovered #7 and 8 with verticle scoring in those two cylinders only.

Scoring could have happened during assembly. It also could have happened by letting crap into the intake. I doesn't take all that much. A tiny hard partical getting between the cylinder and piston can scratch it up pretty bad.

Too much timing and detonation break a plug. Lot's of ways it could have happened.

In short it may not be Roush's fault at all.

[PANAVIA]

We would be happy to help - if you can get the car here. -

- not sure who/what would be the closest ROUSH dealer to you.

# 795 is recent, so you should be covered/eligible.

Send me a PM.

[209]

To all of you who answered: the installer is Stephen at Full Throttle Performance in Sparks and I was told the pistons will be at Roush April 5th. Yes I had to pay freight to and from as per new rules. Warranty was never a issue as it was only 6 months old. I followed their rules of changing oil at 500 and 2500 with correct oil. Funny in that first 500 miles, it used no oil, after was another story. Thank you for your advice. Cliff

[Ron61]

Are the problems that I keep seeing posted on here just with the Roush built engines? I had one built in Ohio that was stroked to 418 in my Cobra and ran it hard for 9 years before I sold it and it never used any oil at all. But I normally changed the oil after every hard day of running to check it and see if anything showed up in the pan or oil. I had a friend that had his built using my specs and stroked to 410 and he never had any problems and he races his a lot. When just driving it, I would put several hundred miles on it and it never showed any lower on the dipstick.

Ron

[SwiftDB4]

My 427SR uses about 1qt./1000-1300 miles. Motor has 4500 miles and 2 years on it now. Not thrilled with the oil consumption, but OK if it doesn't get worse.

[scottj]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I have always been of the opinion that a 427W is over stressed the minute it's put together. Oh sure it is common number, just not one I would ever personally go for. Just to much bore and stroke in that tiny block for my liking.

Nothing wrong with the bore/stroke combination (4.125 x 4.0)... happens to be the same as the new LS-7 in the Z06 Vettes.

Originally Posted by olddog

If you start with an aftermarket block at 4.125 bore and only go 4.0 on the stroke, I think you should be fine. Same stroke as a 408 with a 4" overbore.

The dirt track boys are running 430 inch SB chevy's with a shorter deck than a Windsor. They are running them hard and turning them up 7K and more.

Dodge, Chevy, and Ford, dirt track boys (and offroad truck boys) run 430" engines. We run a 9.5" deck block machined to 9.3" with the 430" Chevy and turn 8000 rpms in qualifying. They don't stop there... 447" and 461" in a 9.5" block @ 850+ hp is the norm.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

My opinion/observations on the matter.......

Scoring in #s7/8 cylinders it most likely from some metal,debris or other source (broken ring/rings), could be as little as a spark plug elctrode or debris injested from the carb or debris from when the engine was assembled....only a tear-down will tell.......

I followed their rules of changing oil at 500 and 2500 with correct oil. Funny in that first 500 miles, it used no oil, after was another story. Thank you for your advice. Cliff

I'm guessing broken rings..........

Stroker motors especially with pistons that the oil ring goes thru the piston pin hole are notorous for oil consumption.....depends on the piston/ring combo, lately some manufacters have come out with newly designed pistons that keep the rings out of the pin hole....better IMHO...

Stroker motors depending on the rod length and piston are notorouis for scuffing the sides of the cylinder bore from the rod angle and side loading........

Stroker motors can be built to withstand all this and not burn excessive amounts of oil with the right parts and pieces.....

You did buy the motor with a written warranty explaining all the ins and outs of the warranty so you have to accept that. Doesn't make it easier to swallow, but it is what it is.......Personally, I think any manufacter should pay for shipping both ways if the problem is determined to be the fault of the manufacter....few do......

You paid a premium price for a Roush engine and should expect a premium motor,considering who the manufacter is........Seems as of late, we have been hearing of a number of problems with Roush motors...I would hope and pray with all his engineers, someone could figure out how to build a motor without these occuring problems...

Then you have the old "$hit happens" factor!!!!!!!!!!!!! No matter who builds the motor or what parts are used, sometimes things just happen.....

I hope you get the motor repaired or replaced and back on the road soon.........

David

[greg schroeder]

Originally Posted by 209

Someone needs to explain to me why Roush 427w crate engines eat so much oil? Mine is #795 and up to 4000 miles used 2 qts per 1000. The last 500 used 2 qts. Back to the installer for warranty work and he discovered #7 and 8 with verticle scoring in those two cylinders only. Back to Roush and it's been about two months(guessing). I'm no expert but it seems these motors aren't highly stressed even though it's over 500 hp. How hard is it to build a motor and have the rings seat? Apparently kinda tough. Has anyone heard of Craft's motors puking oil? Seems Craft will get my money next time! 209

I think if you put enough engines out there with enough people abusing things you'll get some failures. Not sure why yours would do this, but generally improper break in and pushing the engine cold cause issues. How many people pick up their car and drive off cold and hammer on it? Plenty. You see guys claiming it's fine to run 91 octane fuel all the time too. We read about brand new engines going right to the chassis dynos from installers or even at the installers. I just don't get it, but hey? if Roush wants to pay for foolish use I give them the thumbs up.



The 427R I had used little to no oil and it made about 75 to 100 more wheel HP more than most other installs of the same engine. I sold the car with 10,000 miles and it's still fine at 13,000. The trick is to break the engine in properly and warm the engine and oil after break in before any spirited driving as well as to run the appropriate fuel for the build.

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by greg schroeder

I think if you put enough engines out there with enough people abusing things you'll get some failures. Not sure why yours would do this, but generally improper break in and pushing the engine cold cause issues. How many people pick up their car and drive off cold and hammer on it? Plenty. You see guys claiming it's fine to run 91 octane fuel all the time too. We read about brand new engines going right to the chassis dynos from installers or even at the installers. I just don't get it, but hey? if Roush wants to pay for foolish use I give them the thumbs up.

Good point Greg. They've probably built ~2,000 402s/427's, and most end up getting installed in Cobras. If your going to see issues reported, it's going to be here on Club Cobra.

Just curious, what was the minimum octane you would run in your Cobra? All of the major builders advertise that their engines can run on standard pump gas, so why would Roush be any different (unless they're all wrong ) ?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I think if you put enough engines out there with enough people abusing things you'll get some failures. Not sure why yours would do this, but generally improper break in and pushing the engine cold cause issues. How many people pick up their car and drive off cold and hammer on it? Plenty. You see guys claiming it's fine to run 91 octane fuel all the time too. We read about brand new engines going right to the chassis dynos from

That's the exact reason why I do not and would not and never will build an engine for John Q. Public!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! once they got it, you can't control how they will use and abuse it (not saying this happened with this engine) and think since they have a warranty, just flog the dog out of it and if it breaks, the builder will fix it.......

The one exception I did, was a "standard" overhaul on a 351-W for my niece's husband for his old hunting 4x4 and I told him once hit hit the end of my driveway his warranty expired!!!!!!!!!!!! he may put 2,000 miles a year on the old 4x4.........

My race car doesn't go out on the track till the water temp is at 180 and the oil temp is at at least 180......I let my daily driver warm up for 5 minutes in the winter before leaving for work and 1 to 2 minutes in the summer...........

David

[Tony Radford]

Another thing to consider on the oil consumption issue is the PCV line. I installed a separator on my car. It's amazing how much oil it pulls from the line and I imagine some still makes it through.

[greg schroeder]

Originally Posted by Got the Bug

Good point Greg. They've probably built ~2,000 402s/427's, and most end up getting installed in Cobras. If your going to see issues reported, it's going to be here on Club Cobra.

Just curious, what was the minimum octane you would run in your Cobra? All of the major builders advertise that their engines can run on standard pump gas, so why would Roush be any different (unless they're all wrong ) ?

There are a number of stations around town that have 100 octane unleaded out of the pump in Scottsdale. I'd usually be between 97 and real close to 100 octane, but mix down to 95 or so at times if the good stuff wasn't handy. The car made 475 at the wheels on that. You'll be going backwards in power if the octane goes much higher on the tune I had. Put in 91 from the pump on the same tune and you'll be binking up some pistons while the side pipes drown out the ping noise. That doesn't seem to be uncommon for people with Roush engines, but not for me.

The fuel varies greatly even with same octane from state to state and even city to city from the pump. Go to Detroit and you can buy some nice 95 octane "pump gas". Here in Scottsdale who knows what mix of addatives you'll end up with given 91 octane "pump gas".I guess anyone could back out timing, run lower octane, have less power and be safe and send out an accomanying engine dyno on a diffrent tune. I passed on the Roush "recall" to have the timing adjusted on my engine.

Given a properly set up engine one guy in five minutes can thrash a new cold egine more than a responsible person might in 20,000 miles.