Solid roller failed again

[bermblaster41]

OK [i] am done with the solid roller BULL$$HIT. As some predicted. Not sure of the cause but wiped almost every lobe. Rollers are fine but they ate into my cam. Looking for a simillar cam but hyd roller that will give me approx 550 hp at the crank. My motor is a 408 with afr 205 fully cnc heads, vic jr intake with quick fuel 850dbl pumper. My previous cam had .600 lift with duration around 250s @.050. Looking for any suggestion on experience with other cams. I would prefer an off the shelf cam to speed up down time. I will also be changing out my valve springs and pushrods to match the new hyd cam. Anyone use the MUTHA Thumper cam from comp? Thanks for any advice. Berm

[Hotfingrs]

First off, IMHO, I don't think the lifter's are the problem. If the lefter's are truly fine, and you're wiping cam lobes, then the problem is somewhere else. When I first started running solid roller lifters on the street, I ruined 2 engines using Comp Cams lifters. I kept breaking the rollers off. After doing a lot of research on lifters and talking to a lot of companies, I've come to the conclusion that Crower lifters are the best.

This is my 6th year using Crower and have never had a problem or failure. My spring pressures are in the 210 closed and 630 open range and the cam has 712 lift. This is strictly a street engine with a couiple trips down the strip each year, and about 2000 street miles a year. Engine makes around 800 horse and torque so it's not a mile engine, but these engines can be made to live on the street, with the right parts.

Personally I won't put anything in my engine that has a Comp Cams name on it. They are the only company that I've lost lifters, cams, and ruined engines with.

[madmaxx]

What spring pressures are you running. The first thing is what material is your camshaft, is it the SADI sheet, garbage? You want the cam made from STEEL BILLET 8620 STEEL, NOT CAST SADI SHEET THAT EVERYONE SELLS!!!!!!. By the way the difference in cost is about $25.00. I know comp cams and isky uses 8620 but make sure you request. If you order a lunati from summit the sadi will show up. Deal directly with the cam manufacturer and request 8620.

When you receive your new cam you have a 50/50 chance it will be flaw free so I strongly suggest you inspect carefully for cracks and discountinuities.

I feel for you, you are about to deal with some of the stupidist, most incompetent people on the planet. In fact I would call Blykins and let him deal with the fuking idiots and get a steel billet cam with the profile he suggest. Keith Craft also sells camshaft and may have one stocked thay is right for you.

[JBCOBRA]

Wow Berm.
Hopefully you can find the root cause.
Could there be a geometry issue of some sort?
One other guy to talk to is Doug Meyer @ 610-287-4266

[blykins]

Always opt for the billet cores when doing a solid roller.

If you're definitely looking to swap, you need to subtract about 10-12 degrees duration to match with a hydraulic roller (no lash to take up on a hydraulic cam), so you need something in the 238-242 range on .050" duration.

I like the XFI lobes for the Windsor strokers.

I'm a Comp Cams distributor, I can get the perfect combo for you including lifters, springs, retainers, etc. all in a package deal.

The Mutha Thumper cams sound nice, but there are better performing cams out there. They use a real right lobe center, which offers a lot of overlap (cammy sound).

[Z-linkCobra]

Originally Posted by bermblaster41

OK [i] am done with the solid roller BULL$$HIT. As some predicted. Not sure of the cause but wiped almost every lobe. Rollers are fine but they ate into my cam. Looking for a simillar cam but hyd roller that will give me approx 550 hp at the crank. My motor is a 408 with afr 205 fully cnc heads, vic jr intake with quick fuel 850dbl pumper. My previous cam had .600 lift with duration around 250s @.050. Looking for any suggestion on experience with other cams. I would prefer an off the shelf cam to speed up down time. I will also be changing out my valve springs and pushrods to match the new hyd cam. Anyone use the MUTHA Thumper cam from comp? Thanks for any advice. Berm

How many miles did it take to wipe the lobes? How bad are the lobes how much is the actual wear? What platform is your motor based on, 351 cleveland or windsor? What kind of spring pressure are you running?

[bermblaster41]

yes it is a steel billet cam. It is a custom grind. The springs are matched to the cam by the cam designer who builds only fords. Last year I lost 2 lobes due to the roller lifter bearing failure. The cam was repaired and new lifters installed. The cam was also heat treated Nytraide . spelling. Any way I have less than 500 mile on the cam. I was using joe gibbs racing oil. Before I lost the cam I had about 5000 miles on it before last year.

[Excaliber]

How many miles is an excellent question!!! "Rumor has it", based on my research of the subject, that 8,000 to 10,000 is about the expected life of a solid roller on the street. Interestingly, I lost a roller lifter at just over 8,000 miles myself, so the "data" appears to be accurate.

HOWEVER, I did NOT wipe out a cam lobe. The typical failure of a solid roller is the roller itself on the bottom of the lifter. Those tiny bearings fail due to lack of lubrication, the roller wheel stops turning, and the cam lobe "flat spots it" to the point of it breaking into several pieces. Leaving you with massive valve clearance on the valve that failed.

Wiping SEVERAL lobes of the cam itself does sound like something else is going on in this case. Of course my cam lobe was damaged, but "not that bad" actually, it was the failure of the lifter that was the real problem. While the new soild lifters have a provision for pressure feed oiling, which should enhance longevity of the tiny bearing and roller, I remain somewhat skeptical. Does that increase the life of the roller from 10,000 to 20,000 miles? 50,000 miles? How many more miles remains a bit of a mystery...

Personally, I like a flat tappet for a couple of reasons, the primary one being cost. It's cheap, compared to anything else. They are reliable ASSUMING you closely follow the breakin procedures AND stay on top of the oil requirements (so they are a bit of a hassle all around). Hydro roller's seem to be fairly bullet proof and easy to setup, no hassle.

I like Comp Cam's myself. I suspect, like most ALL the cam grinders a few years back, Comp Cam's was still dealing with an industry wide problem(s) that have been largely addressed today. Lack of adequate ZDDP in the oil being a primary problem, as well as to many folks running "cheap" lifters from overseas manufacturers that proved out later to be of inferior quality. THAT still holds true today, buy cheap lifters and your going to have trouble. DO NOT try to save any money on the lifters, go for the best you can get regardless of price.

Another problem with getting enough oil to the lifter is how modern technology (engine building, windage trays and such) keeps the oil away from the crank. So your "splash" or "oil spray" from the crank to the camshaft lobe area is greatly reduced. Thereby starving the cam/lifters.

[madmaxx]

Still no news on spring pressure, if it were zero you would not have failed the cam. If it were 1000 lbs well you have your answer.

As far as roller lifters, beleive it or not one of the best is the cheapest, ford racing. I have seen comp cam lifters will the roller is not wide enough and you can see the needle bearings, I have seen comp cam lifter with bad metering plates that were concave and would not pump oil up the push rod. I have seen comp cams with sheet from a new lifter inside. Comp cam lifters are sheet.

After talking to numerous builders the cause of hydraulic roller lifter failure is usually a result of too little spring pressure, where the rollers are slamming into the camshaft.

When you look at the Ford hydraulic lifter, you have to remember Ford trust them in milliions of cars and warrants them. They also buy in HUGE HUGE quantities. So you load it up with heavier spring pressure as compared to stock, ok, it last 100K miles instead of 200K miles.

As far as lubrication, oil pours into the lifter bore to pump up the lifter but it also overflows direclty on the lifter wheel. Next time you have your manifold off prime the oil system and watch what happens, oil flood everywhere.

[madmaxx]

Loosing lobes is confusing to me, are you sure you wheels are spinning on your lifters?? 8620 can see spring pressures in excess of 700lbs without problems.

[blykins]

Do you know the spring pressures?

[scottj]

Originally Posted by bermblaster41

yes it is a steel billet cam... Last year I lost 2 lobes due to the roller lifter bearing failure. The cam was repaired and new lifters installed... Any way I have less than 500 mile on the cam... Before I lost the cam I had about 5000 miles on it before last year.

I would bet this failure is the result of the camshaft repair. The first thing I would do is check the hardness of the cam. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard of a repaired cam failing. Probably a moot point though since you're replacing it with a hydraulic set up.

[Z-linkCobra]

I also think he has other problems. I dont think he's found the root problem yet.

I know when we running the big block in the dragster years ago we ran a flat tappit big lift cam. We gaulded a cam bearing one night on a pass (it wasnt pretty at all). Pulled it apart went through it, installed new bearings,new cam and lifters and went back together with it. It didnt even make through the break in period for the cam and did it again. Long story short we should have line bored the block the first time. Why it was out line who knows, when we had probably 100 passes on that motor before it all started.

Im not saying your block is screwed up...Im just saying before you throw money at it even with a hyd. roller....make sure everything is right. With the tight gaps on the cam bearings and lifter bores it dosent take much to give you problems.

[madmaxx]

Cam repaired???????? get the fuk out. Hardness should be 50-60 RHC. Hardness is accomplished by heat treating, it aint but about .020" deep if you are LUCKY. You repair and not heat treated again you have no hardness. Who in the world would ever repair a camshaft????? A new custome grind is $350??????? Off the shelg $250????? if you have to repair sell the car, you cant afford it.

[vector1]

what was the idle rpm?

[FWB]

sorry to be a bit off here but using the F-word in posts is a bit offensive to me. even if it is spelled wrong. maybe we can be a bit more adult and use appropriate language, some peoples posts are linked to their facebook page and there are children looking at them. a little consideration with language is necessary.

[coosawjack]

Originally Posted by FWB

sorry to be a bit off here but using the F-word in posts is a bit offensive to me. even if it is spelled wrong. maybe we can be a bit more adult and use appropriate language, some peoples posts are linked to their facebook page and there are children looking at them. a little consideration with language is necessary.

^^^+1^^^

Sounds to me like spring bind if you wiped out several lobes!!??

[madmaxx]

I will probably quit using F-word but sure I will slip in the future, but I will never be more adult.

The involuntary inappropriate expression was caused by my ignorance in understanding why anyone would repair a camshaft knowing the labor and effort required to replace one not to mention the many mistakes one can make which would could cause engine damage.

[ItBites]

I suspect the cam repair as well. Previously you wiped a lifter wheel - common. Now you had the cam repaired and wiped all the lobes (without wiping out a lifter wheel) - very uncommon. What changed? The cam was repaired. This failure is due to the cam repair not having the right surface hardness. Your first failure is the one you should be worried about... Why did it wipe a wheel with so little run time?

[Excaliber]

Sounds like he had about 5,000 miles on it the FIRST time when it went belly up. Actually, thats reasonable mileage for a solid roller. While my personal research shows about 8 to 10,000 miles is about MAX life you can expect from a solid roller on the street, there are a number of instances that failed well before that mark.

So I'm kind of re-thinking this scenario. He got 5,000 out of a street solid roller, OK, that could be considered a reasonable life span. Meaning, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with his setup. Valve adjustment specs could have called for to much clearance, that will beat up the rollers. The oiling may be adequate for most other cams, but in this case, just not enough for a street solid roller. I was careful to "blip the throttle", often, to keep my cam well lubricated. I never let it idle long, I never ran it at low street rpm's. That could mean the difference between 5,000 and 8,000 miles.

It seems logical to conclude the repaired cam didn't work out and that was the cause of the second failure. All though, I wouldn't write off repairing a cam as easily as many here seem to. We don't know what the cam looked like, how bad the damage was, what kind of repairs were done. I actually considered having my solid roller repaired as only one lobe was showing very little damage, because I stopped running the motor almost immediately following the roller failure.

Max suggested the hardness may be only .020 deep, if I'm not mistaken, it is likely way less than that. I'm thinking it's only .002 deep, if that, it could well be measured in microns in fact. As such, a repair followed by a Nitride treatment, could restore the hardness. I guess, I never really looked seriously into having a cam re-ground or repaired. As such, I couldn't just automatically write off such a procedure, or recommend it.

To many variables here to reach a "solid" conclusion, were just "rolling" some ideas around. Custom grind, were the valve springs correct? Were the valve clearance specs correct? Is the oiling adequate in this case? Was extended idling time involved? Was the throttle "blipped" enough to supplement oiling?