Solid roller failed again

[bermblaster41]

Having a hard time attatching my cam card. I am not an expert. These are the # the cam designer told my machinest to use. I am ready to move on to a hyd roller. just looking for the right set up Solid roller lifter failure

[vettestr]

I read and respect the input of all on these issues as I have been down this same dirt road and never did convince myself I found all the correct answers.

Ernie .... not sure I agree Hyd Rollers are less manly, maybe self denial on my part but I had to chuckle a bit. They are more forgiving for a street engine but low idle RPM or extended idle times without a throttle blurp or two is asking for grief. I made the leap on my last couple of engines and have been very pleased so far but time will tell.

[blykins]

400 lb open pressure is nowhere near enough.....I wouldn't even feel comfortable with 450-475 for a solid roller.

For street rollers, I usually go around 250 seat and 550 open.

On a hydraulic roller, 150 lb seat pressure and 400 lb open is good.

For an engine never turning over 6000 rpm, there is no reason to not use a hydraulic roller cam. There are also plenty of grinds that will allow you to make comparable power levels.

[RICK LAKE]

Bermblaster To start with that camshaft is nasty. 104LSA Narrow power band and peaky. I would love to see a dyno sheet on this motor. If Crane is still making camshafts, there are 2 hydro rooler lifter ones in the high .500" lift that will give you a rough idle and strong midrange if degreed. I am sure Comp has about the same thing. The other person I would call is Keith Craft. Keith has alot of custom camshafts that you can't buy the profiles for. He did all the testing and dynoing to get the power he wanted. The same applys for FE motors.
Getting back to hydro roller camshafts. I have been runnng hyrdo rollers in an FE motor for 5 years. There are some tricks for pushing them to a 6,500 rpm limit. I run a HVHP oil pump with 100# spring in it. I run 15-40 Rotella oil in the motor with 1 bottle of Lucas oil suppliment. Cold start pressure are in the 135# range +-3 psi. When operating at race temps, 65-80 psi at 2,000 rpms with an idle of 35-40. 8 quart oil pan, 3 quart accusump, and cooler for oil in front of car. I also run the oil 1.5 quarts over full for racing. I have the diamond canton windage tray. I like this over the solid tray because it helps spary the oil around the motor more. If I was looking for just HP, A drysump system, controlled drains, plugged lifter valley would all be looked at. Hydro lifters, I have mine per loaded to .015"-.018" on the plunger. This does 2 things, 1st when the lifters pump up at high rpms, there is no possible damage of valves being left open and hitting pistons or losing compression. 2nd it makes the motor run like a solid lifter motor from the high oil pressures.
The big thing is about matching parts for the rpm range you want to run in.
I saved the best for last, BEEHIVE valve springs. I have been running the same set for 12 years, no failures. spring have lost 8-10 pounds of closed pressure and 20 on full open. I went from having a flutter at 6,200 rpms down to 5,800 rpms because of the Erson rockers are heavier than stock adjustable ones. The motor will still go to 6,500 rpms but I don't push it. 6,200 is max chip in the MSD 6al box. With Beehive springs I got 12 hp 8 ft of torque without any other changes. The motor responce was sharper also.
If you are going to build another motor, and it's a stroker, drop the rpm limit, build a torque motor and forget HP. This motor will live alot longer, still have you changing underwear sometimes. If you look some of the guys in Engine Masters and aftermarket heads are sell beehive springs on them now. The lighter the valve train can be made the more power both HP and torque will be produced. Build a good size windsor in the 390+ cubes, a camshaft with a .550+ lift on a 110-112 LSA. Degree the camshaft 2 degrees for torque. It will give you a little lope and haul the bacon. Look at Ernies (excalipers) post about bigger is not always better, just bigger and more problems. This is a street car? If you want to talk about this send a private e-mail. Rick L.

[RICK LAKE]

Blykins Brent You know it's not that simple to pick a set of valve springs for any camshaft, solid or hydro, flat tappet or roller. You have left way to much info out. RPM limit, HP or Torque motor, smooth idle or rough. Oiling system. You know I run beehives and have heard the same issues of not enough valve spring pressures. 380 at .600" lift when new. Now down to 365-360 at room temp, give them another 8-12 pounds lower when at engine operating temps. Setup and camshaft profile are the most important. Too much spring pressure and not enough will do the same thing, kill a valve train, lifters, bend pushrods, poor running motor. I used to think that more was better, I have come to learn that a little less works better and is a safety blanket for not pushing a motor past it's normal limits. If you every have the time and money, buy a set of PAC beehive springs that are used in some busch motors or truck motor. They have a 420 pound limit with .750" max lift. A 7,000 rpm range is not out of the question with these springs. LS2 motors are spinning 7,200-7,300 rpms before valve control is lost. I am going to use these next along with small valve stems. Tell people to lighten the valve train before going to 500 pound valve springs. Again this depends on the camshaft profile. Titanium retainer and valve spring retainers all save weight and extend the rpm range. Solid lifters are lighter that hydros, again more rpms. The jury is still out of the bind clearance on beehives. I run in the .090" 's. of bind clearance. Some say that .060" is doable and that the coils help stablize the valve springs by hitting the coils against each other. Have seen video of this. I have also heard of broken valve springs too. Rick L.

[blykins]

Rick, I used some pretty general terms in my post. The point I was trying to get across was that a 150/400 or 150/450 spring wasn't enough for a solid roller of any kind.

I think this is where solid rollers get a bad name.....builders recommending weak springs, not using oil fed lifters, running cams with 30 degrees of major intensity on the street, etc, etc. And people read this kind of stuff and are not really informed.

A solid roller will have no problem living on the street for miles and miles if the "recipe" is followed.

My heart goes out to Berm, he's had some rough times lately with camshaft selection. For the rpms that he is running, I think a hydraulic roller would have been a much better choice from the get-go. I do custom Comp cams/lobes as well and it would be very easy to pick the perfect one for him where he could still make a ton of power.

[undy]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Blykins Brent You know it's not that simple to pick a set of valve springs for any camshaft, solid or hydro, flat tappet or roller. You have left way to much info out. RPM limit, HP or Torque motor, smooth idle or rough. Oiling system. You know I run beehives and have heard the same issues of not enough valve spring pressures. 380 at .600" lift when new. Now down to 365-360 at room temp, give them another 8-12 pounds lower when at engine operating temps. Setup and camshaft profile are the most important. Too much spring pressure and not enough will do the same thing, kill a valve train, lifters, bend pushrods, poor running motor. I used to think that more was better, I have come to learn that a little less works better and is a safety blanket for not pushing a motor past it's normal limits. If you every have the time and money, buy a set of PAC beehive springs that are used in some busch motors or truck motor. They have a 420 pound limit with .750" max lift. A 7,000 rpm range is not out of the question with these springs. LS2 motors are spinning 7,200-7,300 rpms before valve control is lost. I am going to use these next along with small valve stems. Tell people to lighten the valve train before going to 500 pound valve springs. Again this depends on the camshaft profile. Titanium retainer and valve spring retainers all save weight and extend the rpm range. Solid lifters are lighter that hydros, again more rpms. The jury is still out of the bind clearance on beehives. I run in the .090" 's. of bind clearance. Some say that .060" is doable and that the coils help stablize the valve springs by hitting the coils against each other. Have seen video of this. I have also heard of broken valve springs too. Rick L.

Don't forget some Titanium valves & rods too, AKA LS7.. The Eagle 4340 H-beams are sooooo heavy, as well as their cranks too. You can twist a long arm FE (482"+) past 7K RPM but you better add another $15K in light weight goodies.

[Excaliber]

Brent, I like what I'm hearing about the "new" solid rollers. My old monster motor was originally built a long time ago (10-15 years, but with few miles) so it was totally an old school approach with the rollers. With the new technology I'd have to seriously consider a solid roller again in the future, maybe...

I need "professional help" to get over my prejudice to hydraulic anything, I reckon. You know there was a time, when I was a young man, that anybody that was anybody did NOT run those whimpy hydraulic lifters. Of course, we didn't have hydro rollers back then either. Maybe I should leave high school now and move into the future, which seems to be here and now.

IF I did go solid roller I like the idea of the bushing roller vs the roller bearing roller. It just seems like a better approach for endurance. I LIKE the idea of having to adjust my valves from time to time, it keeps me in touch with my motor, it gives me a reason to pull the valve covers and admire the "art" of my rocker arm assembly.

[bermblaster41]

Guys thanks again for your input. Rick Here is the dyno sheet from my dyno run. There is a dip in it. Something about a software glitch. Berm

[bermblaster41]

Heres 1 more

[blykins]

Berm,

Did you come up with a new setup?

[Jerry Clayton]

Ernie

You may not be able to use hydraulic lifters in your engine unless the block has been drilled. Years ago(mid/late 60s) I plumbed a hydraulic line to each tappet boss so we could use hydraulic lifters in a stroked 427 block that we put into one of our trucks

[Excaliber]

I know what you mean Jerry. My block is a later year "service block", they were "ribbed" (for more pleasure)? That also means it goes both ways (must have been cast in San Fran I reckon)... It'll take solids or hydro's.

[RICK LAKE]

bermblaster41 Berm The one dyno sheet is a dyno issue but both have the same drop of power from 2,700 to 3,800 rpms in HP. I would like to see the A/F ratios during this pull. Something is something really wrong with this motor. It also looks like valve float at 5,800 rpms. There is not enough motor for this camshaft, size or compression. It's a real disappointment that some one let this motor out of a dyno without looking into fixing it. The 104LSA may also have alot to do with this power band issue. Maybe setup of the camshaft to a 108LSA may have help smooth out the power band. If that is valve float at 5,800 rpms this explains the lifter failures. Banging out the lifters on the camshaft, or free fall to base. As Brent did say this motor needs more valve spring pressure or a change in camshaft profile. You might want to look for another engine guy who can put the right parts togeather and still give you a loping idle you want to hear. Rick L. Ps any chance you have a read out sheet on the pulls?? Look at the Vacuum , A/F, and Gas usage. Something is way out of wack.

[Barry_R]

Opinions are like - you know....

Solid rollers can live just fine on the street with a few habits. All the oiling stuff and idling stuff are nice things to do. I don't buy in on the oil spray concept - windage spray aimed at the cam from the crank is not going to see much impact from a tray down below.

What kills roller lifters are impact loads. Too much lash or too light of a spring. Not real fond of synth oils either - the rollers need to roll - not skid. Look it up - roller bearings of any type do not live with impact loads - most require some sort of preload such as wheel bearings, axle bearings, hydraulic roller lifters, etc. Lacking the ability to do this means we need to run them tight - under .010 cold.

The 235 or so on the seat sounds about right for a 6500RPM stainless valve deal. I like to use the Manley Nextec oval track springs - they give me the seat pressure without getting stupid on open numbers, and they seem to last forever.

You guys are reading a lot more into a chassis dyno plot than I can. For all I know the dip could be wheelspin or...?. I think chassis dyno numbers are nearly worthless other than looking for trends.

[RICK LAKE]

Barry_R Being an multi year engine builder for engine masters, One would think that you would have alot more knowledge of power band and curves than most anyone here. Tire spin with 400 HP in 4th or 5th gears at 5,800 rpms?? Come on. If I knew how to get a couple of my dyno sheets on here you could look at them and see the same issues as Brems motor in the 5,800 rpms with erson rockers. With stocker rockers and the same everything else, I pushed the motor to 6,200 rpms before valve float and a dip in power. BOTH DYNO SETUPS ARE IMPORTANT. I like to know how much power I am making at the flywheel and how much loss at the rear tires. We all guess about drivetrain drag being from 18-25%. It would be nice to know within 2-3%. Some changes can be made like changing clutches and flywheels, blueprinting transmissions to spin over easier. Differents between rotating the motor in short block before and after assembly. Less drag more power. Oil sprayer on the bottom of pistons helps cool the piston, you can run higher compressions and stops detonation also. LS9 motor runs them and is also a drysump motor. There maybe a higher vacuum inside this motor than others without a drysump setup. Opinions due vary but the real world doesn't bench race. What works for some doesn't work for others, no answer as to why. Rick L.

[vector1]

maybe barry is using that for an example?

i have a solid roller cam that is going to have to be reground because the lash became too large and missed the ramp, wearing into the face and actually displacing metal on a billet core raising a ridge at the edge of where the wheel would run on one of the lobes. the isky ezx lifters are no worse for the wear but i'll have to check them again. live and learn.

[FUNFER2]

Vactor1- "the isky ezx lifters are no worse for the wear"

Are yours the "Red Zone" ?

Can you decribe more detail with these lifters ?
I'm going to use these.

http://www.iskycams.com/pdf/2010Catalog-pg28.pdf

[Barry_R]

Yes that was just an example.
Data by itself is just "numbers" without adequate context.
The material displacement is common failure/wear on solid rollers. Usually shows up on the backside of the lobe as a result of inadequate spring pressure for the lobe profile - or too agressive a profile for the application. The lifter vaults off the top of the lobe and crashes down on the other side.

[PLDRIVE]

Well I will throw my 2 cents in on solid rollers.

1. DO NOT idle below 1500 for any amount of time.

2. Use a HVHP oil pump (look for 40 psi min at IDLE (hot oil), higher
better)The more oil U can push over the valve train (springs, lifters,,,,,,,)
the better. This will carry the heat away and do a better job of lubricating.

3. DO NOT USE COMP LIFTERS (Endure-X) for the street. They are not a
true pressure feed lifter. Do your own research

4. Keep valves adjusted!

5. Make sure your builder, and cam manufacture understands that this
is a street motor! ( too much spring pressure
(creates heat), too little spring pressure beats the lobes, no radical
profiles )

6. Run one season pull and inspect the lifters. If they all look good put them
back in, and when you have a total of 7000 to 8000 miles on
them (remember no cheep lifters !) take out and send back to
manufacture have them inspected and or
rebuilt as needed. REPLACE SPRINGS at this time.

In summation

A high lift solid roller will live on the street as long as you follow a few simple rules.
Use quality parts matched to your application, Idle at 1500, adjust oil pressure to min of 40psi at idle, Valves adjusted properly and often, Inspect parts as recommended by manufacture.