Best fuel injection for 418 stroker

[Keith58]

I am currently rebuilding my Magnum Cobra here in the UK to a high specification for road and some track use. The engine is a 351 Windsor stroked to 418 with AFR 205 heads, victor junior intake and holley 750 DP carb. The car runs MSD distrubutor, coil and 6 AL control unit.

I have hopefully attached picture.

The engine has just been assembled and the car will not be finished until March but having suffered with previous builds form slightly erratic performance using carbs, wanting reliability and optimum performance for road and track use along with ever increasing fuel prices here in the UK I am considering fuel injection.

Having looked at a number of sources, incluidng this forum, there is obvioulsy a wide choice but I am looking for soem experinced advice on which system to choose.

It seems that the choice is between 'self tune' bolt on systems such as Massflo and EZI EFI through more sophisticated TWM, Accel systems through to Stack, FAST, Inglese and Hilborn offering high quality components, full programmability and increased performance.

I have read that the higher end systems are complicated and require considerable set up and maintenance but when right deliver the goods. I really like the look fo the Hilborn setup but a three piece inlet that requires drilling of the lifter rails seems overly complicated!

I am a little sceptical about the lower end self learn systems as not sure that they will optimsie my setup and want to buy a complete matched system.

I want to make sure that whichever system I choose matches the quality and performance of the rest of the car but does not give me a headache by way of need for constant adjustment. Here in the UK the car will not be used much over the winter so needs a system that is robust and not affected by minmial or no use over several months.

Want to get the best that I can afford but don't want to make the right decision hopefully based upon experts and others with more experience than me.

All advice much appreciated.

[Cashburn]

The EZ EFI from FAST has been working great for us on a wide range of engines. We did 1 Mass Flo system many years ago and chose to wait for another company to enter the mix and do a better job at a "bolt on" system.

[Keith58]

Cashburn

Many thanks.

Wondered of there are restrictions with the EZI unit or whether there are advantages of a higher spec unit such as the FAST XFI kit with inlet etc?

[Cashburn]

There are always advantages, but complexity comes with it. The EZ kit is very simple and from what we are seeing does not effect performance negatively. Used on Roush 342, 402, and 427 engines.

The new Roush 427SRXE includes it.

[N2VENOM]

I installed the EZ EFI system on my roush 451 FE about a 1000 miles ago. The throttle response is unbelievable and a tremenous asset for autocross events. The installation wasn't to difficult and the computer was simple to program. I'm going to install a hilbourn system on the cammer that Keith craft is currently building. A more complicated system. For the money, I recommend the FAST EZ EFI system. Happy Holidays, Darren

[Keith58]

N2Venom

Comforting to hear that Roush are using the EZI kit.

Did you use the full EZI kit includung their manifold?

Just wondering if their manifold is better suited than the Victor Jnr I have or vice versa.

I have also heard that the O2 senso should be fitted nearer the exhaust port as opposed to being in the collector - where did you fit yours?

[SF_SN888KE]

Self tune systems sound like the way to go, but what type of driving and RPM range are you looking at? Looking for more HP?

Upgrading costs will buy a lot of fuel - even with increased costs in the UK. Might be better off and have the carb professionally tuned. $4000 buys 1000 gallons of gas (@ $4/gal) and if you get 10 miles/gal, thats a 10,000 mile break even!

I have TWM system with an Accel DFI Gen 7 (2004) management system on my SBF 427. Part of your decision should be "if you have a problem, who can tune it for you?" Believe it or not, living in the San Francisco Bay Area, it has been hard to find someone that can tune a Accel DFI system. Seems that most people are installing the FAST system. Now I have to upgrade my firmware ($249) and add a dual wideband set up ($899), plus - probably tune up costs. Good to have a stable idle, and not worry about fuel sloshing with EFI.

Also consider the cost of re-doing the fuel system/fuel tank - if you plan to do things right ... could cost $500 - $1000.

Have you considered Webers? ... Although I have always heard that carbs out perform Webers at top end, carbs don't have that cool factor. My other toy has a 347 with Victor Jr. and Holley, but considering Webers through Jim Inglese. His system is more expensive than other packaged systems, but he will custom build your system with "close jetting", out of the box. With all of the problems I've had with tuning, electric fuel pump and now upgrading , will keep the next one simple (no electronics or computer) and cool factor for half the cost of TWM.

I actually spoke to Jim Inglese a while ago, very knowledgable, and good guy.
http://www.jiminglese.com/index.html

good luck, just my $0.02.

[RestoCreations]

I used the mass flo efi system on a previous build and i would not hesitate to use it again. You are somewhat limited to air cleaner choice, but as long as you dont mind using it with an Oval Shelby style air cleaner, you are good to go. A very simple system to install and the engine started on the first crank and i had it on the road 5 minutes later. I never had to mess with the system. A little lag on the return to idle, but only a few second delay-it would hover around 1500 rpm for a few seconds.
I have tried one other EFI system, but i will not mention it here. Feel free to send a private message if you would like to hear about it.

[olddog]

I like to watch the burnouts at the London car show in Ohio. You always see some cars that a hard launch sloshes the fuel away from the jets. You also see some running so rich they look like a diesel going down the street. Definitely carbs have real issues.

EFI also has some real issues. Cost. Finding a tuner your comfortable with. Cost. Alternatively, learning to tune it yourself. Cost. Deciding what system to buy. Did I mention cost?

Speed Density doesn't play well with cams that give low vacuum at idle. Alfa-N can handle it, but is much more difficult to tune and is typically a compromise that is slightly better than a carb. Mass flow is the best in my opinion, but typically they are an ugly sight. The MassFlow system does manage give you a mass flow system with a decent look at a reasonable price - I have one.

The early MassFlow systems used a stock EEC4 computer. The new ones come with a chip that they tune based on what you tell them your engine specs are. They get it pretty close and from what I hear run good enough for most people. It is my opinion the more radical the engine, the less likely the Ford timing and fuel maps are going to be ideal. So I think most people are going to want to tune it for their engine.

Bottom line what ever you use, if you cannot tune it yourself, you need to find someone who actually knows what they are doing. Good luck. Most dabbling idiots think they know it all, and charge just as much as a true expert. I have no idea how to determine which is which until after paying them to do work.

[vector1]

for efi i would look for something with data logging, with a carb you can use an 02 sensor with readout. either way, unless you have somebody tune it, figure on doing some schooling. everybody has good experience with what they sell, or what they have used that worked, but they have nothing to compare it to, find somebody who has used a few of the systems and gain knowledge from their experience.

[Tony Ripepi]

Hello Keith,

Good question and it echoes a long term question with me also, I had a 418 built using the Electromotive TEC3 some years ago and it was a nightmare to program, it has been removed in favor of carburation by the new owner. The new fast technology may be the answer but, whatever you do make certain that you incorporate a closed loop feedback to the ECU.

Another option I have heard good things about is the Dynatek units.

http://www.dynaformance.com/download.php

No personal experience but, there is a great deal of information on their web site. Please keep us updated on your decision and the experience.

Good Luck,

Tony R.

[Barry_R]

I ran speed density on my personal 712 HP FE for several years. I guess it was not radical enough....'cuz it ran perfectly fine and could not have had much if any idle vacuum...

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I ran speed density on my personal 712 HP FE for several years. I guess it was not radical enough....'cuz it ran perfectly fine and could not have had much if any idle vacuum...

Some people have more skills than the rest of us mortals

How difficult was it to get the maps built to control the AFR to target through the lower rpm range at varying loads?

[RICK LAKE]

Keith58 Keith I have been running a Speed-pro system for 14 years. It has had two failures due to installer, me. 1 ground wire was loss, the other was welding a bracket with the system hooked up. Other than that runs great.
I built my own setup to start with a single plane dove setup and machined bungs into each runner. Tiged them in, grind smooth the hanging part in each port and made a basic fuel system to work with duel fuel pumps in the tank. Orginial I was going with a Paxton blower on the car but had belt problems with running a 2" clog belt and stripping the belt or snapping it. The important thing is how large the air inlet is, (throttlebodies or throttlebody) You may need to change the linkage ratio for a smooth steady increase from idle to WOT. From what you are telling us about your motor here how be the setup for you if you are running street, if you are looking for track, you get the other setup,
street Ported manifold to fit your heads bungs installed and cleaned up
Brain, FasT system with wide O2 sensor ability range. If the camshaft is nasty the programming will have to be "N" programming because the map sensor with that readings all over the place. The main controlling sensor will be the TPS. You will need a return system with 1/2" to the motor and 3/8" return to the tank. I recomend running 2, 255L fuel pumps in the tank with a one way check valve and on different switches or use the brain for controlling one and have the other on a backup switch. 1,200 cfm throttlebody from Accell. You should still goto a pro tuner and have it setup correctly. They are good for fining any where from 10-20 hp more after setup is done. Cost on east coast is $125.00 per hour with 3 hour min. Good tuners have you in and out in 4 hours. Changing spark plugs a couple of times to get a sharp tune. I run mine soft because of all the weather changes around the east coast and different events I goto. I have 3 downloads for different tracks from short autocrosses to long road courses. Trans change is also done too. Unless you have all cylinders tested for A/F and EGT's to fine the leanest cylinder, and have the O2 installed in that exhaust pipe, install the O2 sensor as far back as you can up to 12" behind the collector for the best readings. Every motor has rich and lean cylinders. This is also a reason I went with the FAST system. Mine has a timing and fuel control for each injector to balance out the cylinders. When done right the motor runs as smooth as glass. IMO I don't believe that there are system that do relearn as you drive, there is a fudge factor built in and basic setup to get the motor running. with a 10% high/low adjustment the motor will run ok BUT still need a good tuner for a sharper tune. For power wise a carb will make a little more top end power that a throttle body but for drivibility and better control of the motor rpm and having no lean outs or rich wash downs from a carb the FI wins. Injectors would be 50 lbs. and having a vacuum fuel pressure regulator. I don't like running injectors more that 80% duty cycle. At 6,200 rpms with a 482 motor I am in the 67-69% cycle. I also believe that the quad drivers for the ECU don't get overheated. Good open space or a small fans is needed to help control temp of the ECU. I use the foot well inlet on pass side of car to keep heat down. I also have a 3" fan if needed to help move air through better. My MSD 6AL is under the ECU and also gets plenty of air too. Got long winded here will finish this later. Rick L.

[Keith58]

Thanks for all of the comments and advice guys - I am still deliberating.

Want to get this right as hope to only do this once!

Hilborn quotation for full lit comes in at just over $7,000 which is not cheap but would seem to offer a more professional product and closer to guaranteed outcome.

Easy to settle for something costing half as much but not if it doesn't do te job.

By the way gas in the UK is currently $1.85 per litre which equates to just over $9 per gallon so only pays for 4.4K miles and not 10K.

Will keep you posted on my decision and will feed back in anything useful.

It seems odd that nobody has produced a review/guide to this issue it seems that it all comes down to individual choice which seems a bit odd as there must be a way of creating a decision making checkbox based upon a number of criteria???

[Mac VABCH]

I have the MassFlo system, but don't let the marketing fool you. It does need tuning! Preferably on a chassis dyno after the system id up and running. I have had it for several years now it is a bit testy to get the tuning right. but if you don't mind spending some money with a tuner that knows what he is doing then it will work great. If not then go with another system....Mac

[Wild Card 289]

I had no idea that Hilborn make an EFI. For me they were known for making race engine mechanical injection that wasn´t streetable.

http://www.hilborninjection.com/index.asp

It looks great, and if it works good, is well worth the $.

My experience with an aftermarket injection system (TWM/Accel on my 427) is that the problems arise from the installation (consistent fuel supply), and the quality of the signal that the sensors get (MAP vacuum, design of the intake manifold).
Dyno and road testing are also essential in order for all driving situations to be assessed and mapped, it would seem.

Having bought my car used, I didn´t know how it was set up. Mine ran rich, caused bore wash and eventually piston slap after only 3000 miles.
After the motor rebuild, we will start the full process. I am still toally pro -EFI.

Don´t believe that because a motor starts and idles great, delivers great acceleration and top speed, and can run smooth and economical at cruise, that the motor is healthy. Mine did all that, but somewhere in the driving cycle it would run extreme rich, long enough to do damage.

[Keith58]

Wild Card

Does the TWM/Accel system support multiple mappings, i.e. 1 for mild day to day use, 1 for more aggressive street use and 1 for 'full race'?

I am finding this a difficult question to get answered as the information available seems to place selection with the buyer as to how they want to use the system.

I would have thought we all want the same thing - good performance with reasonable initail setup but then worry free maintenance.

Surely there are enough system out there for a 'guide' to be given??

Thanks again

[Tony Ripepi]

You need to take a look at the Dynatek system, the user manual is on their site in PDF.

http://www.dynaformance.com/download.php



Tony R.

[Wild Card 289]

I don´t know if there is a such a facility on the Accel software. I just know you can configure it in just about any way you want to - if you actuallyknow what you want!

The point of fuel injection with wide band oxygen sensors is that the ECU will tune itself on the fly and correct the mixture/ignition according to how you drive the car (also influenced by MAP and intake temperature).
That is what carbs cannot do.

As long as the adjustment window for mixture and ignition advance is correctly set up to cover all driving conditions, from economy to full bore acceleration, your right foot is all you need.....

Modern motors can do more, by virtue of clever stuff like variable cam profile or intake tracts and a double the number of sensors (inertia sensors, for example), and even then they can be annoying because the economy setting may be too sluggish or the sport setting difficult to drive smoothly in less than flat out situations.

Judging the websites alone, Dynaformance and Hilborn are way ahead of TWM (in terms of describing the product and what it can do), but a real world back to back comparison of functions and features would already be a great help. Whether one produces 10 more horsepower has got to be secondary to reliability.