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Old 01-23-2011, 07:30 PM
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Question What kind of engine "treatments" do you like?

I am planning a rebuild of my SBF engine soon (a 1989 8.2"/5.0 from a Mustang GT), and as I plan it out, I'm thinking about using some of the available engine treatments. I'd like to hear from others about the engine treatments they have used and liked.

Specs for the new engine will include good forged internals, aftermarket heads, the standard stuff...I hope to be able to rev the engine to 6,500 RPM's on a regular basis without worrying about it self-destructing.

The sort of "treatments" I am asking about include things like nitriding the crank, "teflon" coating the pistons, that sort of thing---and I am most assuredly interested in learning about the multitude about which I am unaware, as well. Not looking for advice on which brand of crank/pistons, that sort of thing.....unless there is a "treatment" you recommend that is only available on a specific brand of equipment and is not available in the aftermarket. I'd also appreciate an explanation regarding why you recommend a specific treatment so that I understand how it will make the engine more powerful/durable .

Thanks in advance for whatever helpful suggestions you can make!

Cheers from Dugly
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:13 PM
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As long as you do carefull assembly, and use quality parts, the engine will easily live up to 6,500 rpm's lap after lap. No need to get fancy or high tech.

There's only two coatings that I have considered: Thermal crown and anti-friction skirt. I was considering both of these this year, but my budget wouldn't allow it.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:16 PM
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http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/comp-...-valve-97.html


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Old 01-23-2011, 08:16 PM
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Heard this one works real good (apologies in advance:

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Old 01-23-2011, 08:36 PM
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zMax?

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.shtm
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:50 PM
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Hmmm, snake oil?
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphy View Post

nearly 10 year old news.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:39 PM
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It would appear there is some thread drift toward chemical treatments,,,, well, that happens.

For MODERN engines with fuel injection I like the Techron concept. There really is something to it, not just another "snake oil". Hesitation when it's cold? Loss of power when it's cold? But runs OK and power returns when it's warm or hot? A concentrated dose of Techron could fix that! Piston slap kind of noise at various rpm's, hot OR cold? Techron to the rescue!

Carbon buildup could be the knock you hear. Todays engines run really close tolerance and even a small amount of carbon buildup will cause interference issues. The carbon buildup on the valves acts like a "sponge" when it's DRY and COLD from sitting. It sucks up some fuel from the injector spray, thus, you run lean. Hesitate, miss, loss of power. Once the DRY carbon is fully saturated, the fuel/air ratio returns to normal.

Once your this far gone, Chevron gas with Techron in it won't help, your to late. Get a CONCENTRATED can from the parts store and pour it in the tank. Might have to do that treatment a couple of times. Worked excellent on my Mercede's SLK!

The amount of Techron in the GAS at the pump is fractional, a preventative maintenance amount when used on a regular basis, not a "cure" for after your sick.

My modified side oiler with custom pistons runs a pretty tight clearance to the head at TDC (more quench, more better). I'm thinking with such a design, like modern engines now have, carbon buildup, over time and miles, might be an issue at some point on my Cobra. Is that why it runs funky when it's cold? Eh... probably not, I don't have a choke.

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Old 01-24-2011, 10:52 AM
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Dugly,

Sorry for dragging your post off topic with an attempt at humor. Most agree that ZMax is indeed (and fittingly) "Snake Oil". Here's a post that more directly answers your questions about engine coatings: http://www.britishcarforum.com/bcfor...ing#Post734888
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YerDugliness View Post
I am planning a rebuild of my SBF engine soon (a 1989 8.2"/5.0 from a Mustang GT), and as I plan it out, I'm thinking about using some of the available engine treatments. I'd like to hear from others about the engine treatments they have used and liked.

Specs for the new engine will include good forged internals, aftermarket heads, the standard stuff...I hope to be able to rev the engine to 6,500 RPM's on a regular basis without worrying about it self-destructing.

The sort of "treatments" I am asking about include things like nitriding the crank, "teflon" coating the pistons, that sort of thing---and I am most assuredly interested in learning about the multitude about which I am unaware, as well. Not looking for advice on which brand of crank/pistons, that sort of thing.....unless there is a "treatment" you recommend that is only available on a specific brand of equipment and is not available in the aftermarket. I'd also appreciate an explanation regarding why you recommend a specific treatment so that I understand how it will make the engine more powerful/durable .

Thanks in advance for whatever helpful suggestions you can make!

Cheers from Dugly

Most piston manufacters offer pistons with their own "teflon" coating, other than that, use top quality parts and you'll be just fine......

David
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:37 PM
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Dugly look up Cryogenics.


Remembering oil with Teflon additives.
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:57 AM
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The coating applied to piston skirts by OEMs is not teflon. Its a DuPont D10 graphite in a polymer base. And it works to resist skirt scuffing. Best if screen applied - spray applications tend to be more sacrificial and wear off quickly - still helps, just not as long.

Nitriding (or something similar) is a hardness treatment done to many if not all aftermarket and most OE crankshafts at the manufacturer. It is neither a coating, nor a gimmick. It's an accepted process at all levels.

A fair amount of the remaining coatings are marketing or sols as "insurance" without a quantifiable power/performance benefit.
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YerDugliness View Post
I am planning a rebuild of my SBF engine soon (a 1989 8.2"/5.0 from a Mustang GT), and as I plan it out, I'm thinking about using some of the available engine treatments. I'd like to hear from others about the engine treatments they have used and liked.

Specs for the new engine will include good forged internals, aftermarket heads, the standard stuff...I hope to be able to rev the engine to 6,500 RPM's on a regular basis without worrying about it self-destructing.

The sort of "treatments" I am asking about include things like nitriding the crank, "teflon" coating the pistons, that sort of thing---and I am most assuredly interested in learning about the multitude about which I am unaware, as well. Not looking for advice on which brand of crank/pistons, that sort of thing.....unless there is a "treatment" you recommend that is only available on a specific brand of equipment and is not available in the aftermarket. I'd also appreciate an explanation regarding why you recommend a specific treatment so that I understand how it will make the engine more powerful/durable .

Thanks in advance for whatever helpful suggestions you can make!

Cheers from Dugly
When i worked for the navy we nitrided several different weapons parts, i never was sure exatly what it did except deburr and maybe harden and close porosity?
Does anyone know the complete answer?
We also used lots of phos coatings and teflon, also glyptol paint inside gear cases etc.
thanks
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
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When i worked for the navy we nitrided several different weapons parts, i never was sure exatly what it did except deburr and maybe harden and close porosity?
Does anyone know the complete answer? ........................."
post #3 above has a link to comp cams nitriding info page. there is also a pdf download on the comp cam info page for more detail. For non- roller cam applications getting the nitriding treatment seems to be a smart move.

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Old 01-25-2011, 08:02 AM
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My engine seems to like Lucas fuel treatment
Maybe it helps with the ethanol in our crappy gas?
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:08 AM
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Pro-Blend is an amazing oil additive. Been using it for 20 years in everything. Not a lubricant in itself, but bonds to the metal at a molecular level and the hotter the metal gets, the more it pulls the oil to that spot. Oil by itself "runs away" from hot spots on metal if normally left untreated. Everyone I know who uses it loves it.

They talk a lot about how much cooler the oil runs. This stuff is NOT an oil cooler. The fact that the oil runs cooler is a result of the huge reduction in friction it provides.

http://www.pro-blend.com/enginelube.htm



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Old 01-25-2011, 01:18 PM
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Thanks so much for the suggestions so far, guys!

I am familiar with cryogenic treatments....some of the guitar strings I use are cryogenically treated, and they tune up the first time and hold their tune for a LONG time! It could be good for main studs, rod bolts, maybe even connecting rods and push rods.

I am interested in "treatments" applied to the components of the engine...like the coatings on the piston skirts and the crown of the pistons...nitriding the cams (although, I think I'll use a solid roller cam, I might get the cam nitrided anyway).

I haven't heard much about coatings on the main/rod bearings (Teflon, Silverstone or similar substances).

What I want to do is assemble the engine with parts that can be treated to enhance longevity, I can deal with the fuel/oil additives at a later date (I'm somewhat of a believer in them, used some sort of oil treatment on the 302 in an '85 T-Bird and that engine was still going strong when I had to scrap the car at over 300,000 miles, and still didn't consume any oil).

The engine will go back into my Cobra replica...I don't really need (or necessarily want) huge horsepower numbers, other than those that will be enhanced by the high RPM capacity provided by the quality components used in the build. A final result of 400 HP at the flywheel would be good for me. I don't really like high speeds, I just want to feel my eyeballs pressed back against the back of my skull as I accellerate.

Thanks! Keep the suggestions coming, please! Key issues=durability, reliability, high RPM's.

Cheers from Dugly
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrayr View Post
post #3 above has a link to comp cams nitriding info page. there is also a pdf download on the comp cam info page for more detail. For non- roller cam applications getting the nitriding treatment seems to be a smart move.

Z.
The Navy did not use that process, they submerged the parts in nitric acid for a measured length of time and rinsed several times, thats all.
Also used saline solution with dc current to de-burr and do some machining in late 60's.
I think industry has adopted some of this also.
I remember a beautiful piece of work, a 40mm machine gun barrel. bright chrome inside bright black chrome outside.
We found that out of all the coatings we used, a very light [flash] coat of zinc chromate prime coad with a proper coat of paint was the most important for the exterior protection.
The phosphate coatings are very good under paint or for a lubed surface.
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:20 PM
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I wouldn't bother to treat a solid roller cam, here's why.

If the lifter ROLLER goes bad, which is the most likely scenario, it will tear up the cam lobe no matter what you've done to it.
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:11 PM
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I would say save your money on everything. A well assembled engine without the coated bearings, pistons, etc., will outlast you and your car if you take good care of it.

+1 on the camshaft.....don't worry about nitriding, just buy a good billet core.
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