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05-28-2011, 03:20 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: American Fork,
Ut
Cobra Make, Engine: 66 Cobra
Posts: 930
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Not Ranked
That's what I though on the pump with those stock oil pump shafts. There is a lot of debate about the merits of the HV pumps. We use to break those shafts a lot in the 60s and that was before the HV pumps. I have a gauge, a light, and a buzzer. Two senders!
Wayne
Last edited by Wbulk; 05-28-2011 at 03:30 PM..
Reason: fix
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05-28-2011, 04:04 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: MARKSVILLE,LA.,,
Posts: 3,235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz64
I'd say he has a high volume pump and a standard pump driveshaft.
Tight clearances, big pump and weak shaft.
Weak shaft is the weak link.
Most would agree to run a gauge AND a light, both can't lie at the same time.
Yes, he still has a chance, although very slim.
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On my race car and street car I have a red warning light with a 20Lb. psi sender....if it comes on, you'l see it.....thankfully,never have seen them come on except at start-up........
BTW: I'm not a big proponent of high volume oil pumps....
BTW 2: at some Ford Fun Events, they used to have a "chevy burn down contest", take any old chevy car out of a junkyard still running, remove the driveshaft, drain the water in the radiator and oil in the pan, start it up, put a brick on the accelarator and you'd pay a few bucks to guess how long the motor would last before blowing, seen one do 22 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David
__________________
DAVID GAGNARD
Last edited by DAVID GAGNARD; 05-28-2011 at 04:08 PM..
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05-29-2011, 03:09 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chester Springs,
PA
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham 289 FIA #690, FRPP 427 Boss engine
Posts: 764
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Not Ranked
Glad to hear you used a Chevy!
__________________
RCR GT40 SOLD to Fast 5
Kirkham #690 289 FIA
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05-29-2011, 06:07 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain,
ESP
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary with 482 KC/SO, TKO600,IRS Jag/AMP, 3.54 Salisbury PL,
Posts: 582
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Not Ranked
Andronikos,
sorry to read your bad experience. You think you have a nice cobra and you want to drive it and enjoy, and all of a sudden you find yourself with a broken engine.
Something very similar happened to me on my first excursion with my new cobra. I did not get very far because the headgasket blew and the engine went hidro. Hade to send the engine twice to England to have it repaired by the guy who build it (badly), and the third time I had a problem I decided to do it myself.
Get yourself a Haynes manual for your engine, get a torque wrench, take the engine out of the car (you will have to eventually) and have the crankshaft repaired locally.
I live in Mallorca, Spain, and here we have many mechanics servicing boat engines, most of them are big american V8. So the experience is there. I am sure that there is some shop doing crankshaft turning and polishing. You can take the engine block to such a shop and they will repair it. You will only have to get them the rod and main bearings, they will do the rest. The Haynes manual will tell them the tolerances and torque values.
Get an ARP shaft for the pump, or any other real good shaft.
Your rockers are sitting to low on rocker stud. The rocker studs are probably too short Check the manufacturer of the rockers and see if some longer rocker studs are on offer. You will also need longer pushrods. Two or three of the hydraulic lifters will have to be replaced too.
You can get parts at Summit or Jegs or any other of the online automotive shops.
You can also contact someone like Keithcraft and have him have a look at the pictures. He can tell you what you need to fix the valvetrain issue.
I would take the engine out, remove the heads, check the valves for bent ones, take the engine block to a machine shop for crankshaft repair and in the meantime sort the valve train issue.
You can also order a new short block , but you will have to pay over 2000$ for freight,, plus custom tax and the 23% VAT tax. Expensive.
Do it youself, you will learn a lot and eventually enjoy working on the car as much as driving it.
By the way, what Cobra is that? Looks like the front suspension from a BMW Series 3.
__________________
Nothing sounds better than a Cobra in a Tunnel !
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05-29-2011, 08:05 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: American Fork,
Ut
Cobra Make, Engine: 66 Cobra
Posts: 930
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I tend to agree with Eljaro. If the crank is bad and you can get it turned locally, that is a big plus. Even if you replaced the heads with some Edelbrocks and go with new rockers, and the other parts, I bet you would have less than 2,000 into it including shipping. As you can see so called high performance parts do not necessarily a high performance engine make.
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05-30-2011, 09:30 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 67
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Hello guys,
I removed the bearings today. Crankshaft seems ok. A professional will check it of course. (if it is 100% round, scars etc). There are some tiny scars but lets see what the guy will say.
Here are the latest pics of the rod bearings and Crankshaft.
www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/30maysm.zip (12.7mb)
Wbulk: Thank you for the information.
DAVID: From where can I order that red warning light with a 20Lb. psi sender ?
Eljaro: Thank you for the advice. Yes I will do as you suggested. Shipping the engine to US cost around 2000$. So I think your advice is the best for me.
Can you point which exact book / manual I will need?
I found this one:
Ford Engine Overhaul Haynes Techbook
If crank and cylinders are good I am thinking to fix it for the summer (with correct valve train geometry etc) and do a fully crazy rebuilt during winter and take my time.
My car is a Backdraft.
Once again thank you for the help - Andronikos,
Last edited by andronikos916; 05-30-2011 at 09:57 AM..
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05-30-2011, 09:56 AM
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Half-Ass Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 22,004
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Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by andronikos916
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Downloading and extracting compressed images is asking a lot from some of the old geezers on this site. Here, I set up a page with all the high-res images easily displayed: Andronikos Engine Shots
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05-30-2011, 10:56 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: American Fork,
Ut
Cobra Make, Engine: 66 Cobra
Posts: 930
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Not Ranked
Thanks patrickt for doing that. Andronikos, main journals in pictures 0017 and 0019 concerns me. Can you get a better shot? If that is not bad you may have lucked out big time. Looking at that pump no wonder the pump shaft broke. That screen is so fine I can't imagine metal going through it to cause that pump to fail. Maybe a weld flaw or debris inside the pick-up tube that broke loose, who knows. So it looks like the pump failed and broke the pump shaft. The loss of pressure caused the lifters to lose pressure and bounce in their bores until two popped out. You should have had major lifter noise. A lot of clattering!
Any other theories?
Wayne
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05-30-2011, 11:32 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Palma de Mallorca, Spain,
ESP
Cobra Make, Engine: Contemporary with 482 KC/SO, TKO600,IRS Jag/AMP, 3.54 Salisbury PL,
Posts: 582
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Not Ranked
I think a very good book for the 351W engine you have is HPBooks How to Rebuild Small-Block Ford Engines Book By Tom Monroe. I have the Steve Christ book for the Big Block Fords and it is simply outstanding.
I agree with Wayne, the culprit has been something which was either inside the oil pump or the pickup tube ( some loose casting material or a welding residue from a not so good product) , because I can not imagine anything that big getting past the screen.
You HAVE to get the crank out: pìcture 17 shows a main journal I would not like to live with.One of the Con rods has taken some heat (the yellowish one) and is probably deformed, so you will have to replace that one too.
Mentalize yourself that the engine has to come out and the crank reground. You will need some bits and pieces to replace broken parts.
Otherwise nothing that can not be done. Plenty of help here in the Forum too.
__________________
Nothing sounds better than a Cobra in a Tunnel !
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05-30-2011, 09:06 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: MARKSVILLE,LA.,,
Posts: 3,235
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Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by andronikos916
Hello guys,
I removed the bearings today. Crankshaft seems ok. A professional will check it of course. (if it is 100% round, scars etc). There are some tiny scars but lets see what the guy will say.
Here are the latest pics of the rod bearings and Crankshaft.
www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/30maysm.zip (12.7mb)
Wbulk: Thank you for the information.
DAVID: From where can I order that red warning light with a 20Lb. psi sender ?
Eljaro: Thank you for the advice. Yes I will do as you suggested. Shipping the engine to US cost around 2000$. So I think your advice is the best for me.
Can you point which exact book / manual I will need?
I found this one:
Ford Engine Overhaul Haynes Techbook
If crank and cylinders are good I am thinking to fix it for the summer (with correct valve train geometry etc) and do a fully crazy rebuilt during winter and take my time.
My car is a Backdraft.
Once again thank you for the help - Andronikos,
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oil pressure warning light with all fittings, here, all for $19.99..........
GAGELITES
David
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DAVID GAGNARD
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05-31-2011, 02:23 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 67
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Thank you David.
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05-31-2011, 06:31 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 67
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1 more thing I need to mention guys - I am thinking / trying to solve the mystery what failed 1st and caused that damage.
I know that the valve train clearances where not perfect ( rockers almost touching the valve retainers etc.. and the gaskets where wrong (nothing to do with the failure) - but I never mentioned that the 2nd day of having the car - I tried to start the engine but I was not successful - only after 1hr of trying with fuel pump on - off etc etc.
So here is the story:
After 2-3 times of the ignition button the battery start dying...That was weird...It died super fast.
If you have seen my first video I am describing that it was very difficult to start the engine once - and a big black / wet spot was on my fence that day.
Do you think that the electric fuel pressure caused the carburetor & cylinder(s) to take more fuel and when I tried to start the engine and caused that damage on the valve train?
I am not saying that it is supposed to happen but maybe I left the fuel pump too long? 30sec - 1min? Is that a possible scenario?
Best - Andronikos,
Last edited by andronikos916; 05-31-2011 at 07:20 PM..
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05-31-2011, 07:20 PM
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6th Generation Texan
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Devil's Backbone,RR 32,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: Lone Star Classics #240,Candy Apple Red,Keith Craft 418w - 602 HP,584 TQ
Posts: 8,157
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Not Ranked
You did nothing from a little extra oil in the pan to flooding the engine to cause the valve train a crater.
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06-01-2011, 03:11 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane,
QLD
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 2,797
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Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by andronikos916
1 more thing I need to mention guys - I am thinking / trying to solve the mystery what failed 1st and caused that damage.
I know that the valve train clearances where not perfect ( rockers almost touching the valve retainers etc.. and the gaskets where wrong (nothing to do with the failure) - but I never mentioned that the 2nd day of having the car - I tried to start the engine but I was not successful - only after 1hr of trying with fuel pump on - off etc etc.
So here is the story:
After 2-3 times of the ignition button the battery start dying...That was weird...It died super fast.
If you have seen my first video I am describing that it was very difficult to start the engine once - and a big black / wet spot was on my fence that day.
Do you think that the electric fuel pressure caused the carburetor & cylinder(s) to take more fuel and when I tried to start the engine and caused that damage on the valve train?
I am not saying that it is supposed to happen but maybe I left the fuel pump too long? 30sec - 1min? Is that a possible scenario?
Best - Andronikos,
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Andronikos,
Your engine failure is unrelated to the fuel system.
High fluid content within a cylinder generally bends rods first.
You had oil pressure failure, possibly high volume pump fitted with a stock Ford oil pump driveshaft.
The shafts do twist as the weak link (factory design), so as to not strip the teeth off the distributor gear/camshaft gear.
As I and others have said, the engine is mix of mismatched parts, the engine builder may need to be involved.
Those rocker arms don't have adequate clearance for the valve retainers. You need a rocker designed for large springs.
Being an Aussie, I've only used Yella Terra or Crane, never had an issue or failure.
The studs aren't long enough for adequate thread engagement with the posi-lock.
You can still fix this, but you'll need some education on the subject, there are many forum members here who can help you.
__________________
Gary
Gold Certified Holden Technician
Last edited by Gaz64; 06-01-2011 at 03:19 AM..
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06-01-2011, 05:42 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Cobra Make, Engine: Sold - Shelby Cobra CSX6045, 468 ci all aluminum Shelby engine
Posts: 370
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Not Ranked
Andronikos,
Has Eric offered any further assistance or explanation of the engine build?
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06-01-2011, 07:03 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chester Springs,
PA
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham 289 FIA #690, FRPP 427 Boss engine
Posts: 764
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Not Ranked
I'm curious about the engine builder's response also. In the mean time, take the oil pump out and see if you can turn it by hand. With no oil in it you should be able to turn it. Open it up and inspect the impeller looking for any debrise that could have caused it to seize. I also feel that you did nothing wrong to cause this problem other than buying a car with a problem engine. You are not to blame.
__________________
RCR GT40 SOLD to Fast 5
Kirkham #690 289 FIA
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06-01-2011, 07:20 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 3,077
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Once you realize everything is your fault, nobody has ever seen this before, you are a one off, nobody has the amount of issues you do, you will be much happier. In the future stick with mass produced vehicles with a 5 year / 100K warranty.
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06-01-2011, 01:56 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Gore. New Zealand.,
SI
Cobra Make, Engine: DIY Coupe, F/T ,MkIV.
Posts: 808
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Not Ranked
Im curious, were you having to add coolant, or to be more correct, was the radiator coolant level dropping each time you used the car.
There are marks/indentations on the oil pump rotors that indicate some circlips or similar parts have tried to pass thru the pump ( yes the wire type circlips can get thru the pickup mesh )
madmaxx's comments in post 137 above are a bit harsh, but I can understand his sentiments, to continue to use any vehicle when it has an obvious problem transfers a large part of the responsibility to you or whomever drives it. I think the term is 'caveat emptor' or ' let the buyer beware'.... probably applies particularly in cars like this..
__________________
Jac Mac
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06-01-2011, 04:19 PM
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I meant no opinion towards the current thread owner or anyone else. I have had similiar problems in the past and it seams the owner is always blamed never the builder, manufacturer or parts supplier, so if I blame myself for everything it does not hurt so bad This poor guy got so screwed it hurts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jac Mac
Im curious, were you having to add coolant, or to be more correct, was the radiator coolant level dropping each time you used the car.
There are marks/indentations on the oil pump rotors that indicate some circlips or similar parts have tried to pass thru the pump ( yes the wire type circlips can get thru the pickup mesh )
madmaxx's comments in post 137 above are a bit harsh, but I can understand his sentiments, to continue to use any vehicle when it has an obvious problem transfers a large part of the responsibility to you or whomever drives it. I think the term is 'caveat emptor' or ' let the buyer beware'.... probably applies particularly in cars like this..
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06-02-2011, 11:07 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Las Vegas,
NV
Cobra Make, Engine: Classic Roadster; 351W
Posts: 743
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What caused it to fail? I am not an expert but my opinion is as follows: Rocker stud failed (due to poor geometry and interference) causing lifter to pop out resutling in low oil pressure. Parts of broken lifter got into oil pump causing it to fail. Hard starting is the result of above failures. A little extra oil would not have caused a rocker to fail. What does the builder say?
Last edited by Curt C.; 06-02-2011 at 02:40 PM..
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