Change of oil and found metallic spring etc inside - need your advise.

[andronikos916]

Yes there was a small "tick". You know these cars are loud and sometimes difficult to notice that - especially if you are newbie. This tick was while accelerating from 1500rpm - 2500rpm. At least I noticed that twice while returning my car home.

Eric from PE mentioned that I can also buy the "Comp Cams Pro Magnum hydraulic roller lifter set (#8931-16)".

Do you think that they are better than the normal "Ford Racing hydraulic roller lifters"? I guess they are - but are more durable etc?

The price difference is huge. 120$ for Fords vs 530$ for the Comp Cams.


So what I am planning to buy to be sure I have all necessary stuff:

1 x Comp Cams Pro Magnum hydraulic roller lifter set (#8931-16)
or
1 x Ford Racing hydraulic roller lifter set

1 x Fel-Pro intake gasket set
1 x Comp Cams push rod set
2 x Scorpion roller rocker arms
1 x Fel-Pro valve cover gaskets


Best - Andronikos,

[Curt C.]

I have heard that Original Equipment Ford hydraulic lifters are supposed to be good pieces for stock to moderate engines. If you change to the Comp retro link bar lifters you may need to change push rod length. You wont know for sure what length you need until you get the new pieces mocked up. I say stick with the Ford parts. Do the rocker test as described above. You may only need a single lifter and they can be ordered individually. Take the intake manifold off and pull the broken lifter out to make sure you are ordering the right piece. If you just start ordering parts before knowing exactly what is needed you will have to wait longer.

[Wbulk]

I agree with mreid. It looks like a lifter check ball and spring if that ball is about 3/16". There should be a clip and and disc that the push rod sets in somewhere still in the engine. I have seen this twice before. One time it was on my truck with a new Sig Erson RV cam and lifter kit. It happend about 200 miles after the install. I lucked out and just had to put in one new lifter. Could be from over reving stock lifters, but who knows. It will be interesting to see where that push rod is setting to not be causing a lot of racket. If you pull the valve covers give us a picture before you take off the rockers.

In the worst case the push rod got push out of the way and the lifter got pushed out of the bore and is laying in the valley. From there it could get ugly with the push rod falling down the lifter hole and hitting the cam. Hope for the best.

[andronikos916]

I will do the inspection and take pics. I am planning to record video if possible to share with you. Do you think that it is a fix that I can do myself? Maybe with a video / skype? :-)

The above list / parts are from Eric. I guess he knows the Pushrod length and exactly what lifters I need.

I agree that most probably will be 1 lifter - but I am in the other side of Atlantic guys and ordering parts here takes minimum 7-10days. Imagine if I discover that it is only 1 lifter and then (for some reason) I need 2-3 more. I can not wait another 10days. Plus shipping is like 50-60$. So I feel better to order entire set of 16 with 120$ and be safe.

Thank you once again - Andronikos,

[Curt C.]

If you are reasonably smart, willing to learn and can work with hand tools you should be able to drain the coolant, remove the intake manifold, replace the lifter (s), set the rocker arm pre-load and then reinstall the intake manifold. Included in the manifold removal process will be removal of the carburetor and distributorand reinstallation . I assume we are dealing with a 408W (351W stroker variant)? There are good books like "Building Ford Short Track Power" and "Ford Windsor Small Block Performance" that detail working on these engines. You have access to a large number of skilled folk on this website too. However, if this is your first time, be prepared to spend time learning about the procedures and have patience. You will want to make sure its done right the first time. If this prospect scares you and you have money, have a skilled mechanic do it for you. It should not take more than 3-4 hours for a good mechanic to do this. This assumes that only the lifters will have to be replaced. It sounds like Eric knows who built the engine and exactly what parts are used. That is good. If you go with the Ford pieces that are used in 5.0 Mustangs (part M-6500-R302) I agree -get the whole set for $120.

[andronikos916]

Hi Curt C,

Yes the engine is a 408W (I believe a 351 stroker variant). Eric is the guy that build the engine. I think he is the chief mechanic at Performance Engineering.

I am quite good in tools and smart enough ( I think). I have passed exp. with motorcycle racing so I feel ok with tools in my hands.
Also I have 1week+ waiting these parts so I can read / learn the theory, break your nerves with my silly questions :-) before I start opening my engine. I can take video share that with you guys if you do not mind. My only concern is that I do not have a Car Lifter...

I found a cool video explaining some steps of changing the lifters:
YouTube - ‪Cylinder Head Valve Train Teardown Video-Engine Building DVD‬‏

These are the books you are talking about?
Amazon.com: Ford Windsor Small-Block Performance (0075478013234): Isaac Martin: Books

Amazon.com: Building Ford Short Track Power: Official Factory Guide (Do-It-Yourself Guides for Car Enthusiasts) (9781884089473): Ford Racing Engineers, Richard Holdener: Books

If there are any other books / resources please share.

I want to verify with Eric that the Ford lifters are the part No# M-6500-R302
Ford Racing M-6500-R302 - Ford Racing Hydraulic Roller Lifters - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Thank you - Andronikos,

[Wbulk]

Andronikos, I think you can do it. If it's just one lifter it's not as involved as that You Tube video. If you get stumped we can help. You need to get into it to find out what parts you need. If you are not familiar with distributor timing that may be the hardest part for you. Getting it out and back in correctly can confuse some. Send me an email and we can go over the steps.

[Curt C.]

Yes, those are the books. Good reading on Windsor engines. You wont need a car lift to do this. Just hand tools, torque wrench and a jack / jack stands. You can go to Edelbrock.com - Performance Carburetors, Cylinder Heads, Intake Manifolds, EFI Systems, Fuel Pumps, Crate Motors and download instructions for the manifold installations. MSD Ignition Website should have distributor install instructions on line too.

[mreid]

I agree with the above. Use the Ford lifters and get the whole set. Sometimes they fail and it is really not the engine builder's fault. Now if the valve train geometry is incorrect, that would be their fault, but I don't think that is the case here. Please inspect and verify before you buy! Nothing worse than spending your hard earned money, wiating for parts, only to find they are not the problem. Checking the lifters is easy and only takes a few minutes. Just pop the valve covers and wiggle the rockers. A few should feel slightly loose on the cylinders where the valves are closed. If you truly have a damaged lifter, it will be very obvious!

[andronikos916]

Hello again,

I think I will go with the Comp Cams lifter set (#8931-16). If sometimes they fail that means that are not good enough.
I do not want to put the Ford's and have this problem again in the near future. I want to be safe. I've hear that the internal parts are better but if someone thinks it is a waste of money please let me know.

Best - Andronikos,

[madmaxx]

This was not a lifter failure!!!!! How could it be? The root of this problem is what allowed the circlip to popout of the lifter allowing it to come apart. #1 the valve lash was set to close to zero and there was slop between the pushrod and lifter cup causing excessive vibration causing the circlip to pop or break. #2 You bent a pushrod or a bent one was installed. #3 you floated the valves.


Ford racing lifters are perfectly fine, they live in millions of 5.0L for 200K miles. Nobody can match that track record.

[madmaxx]

Once the lifter is installed and the valve lash set correctly YOU COULD REMOVE THE CIRCLIP. It should never see any load if it has .030 preload on it. UNLESS, bent pushrod, very unlikely, or incorrect valve adjustment from the get go, my bet. Hey if it is the first valve on either side that would be my guess since it goes from intake on pass to exhaust on driver. You need to know this when you set the lash.

[andronikos916]

Do I need to mention that the closest spark plugs to driver where more wet? Does this mean anything?

[Barnsnake]

I need a bit of clarification:
In the original post you said these parts were on the oil filter magnet. Is that correct, or were they on the drain plug magnet?

Thanks,

[andronikos916]

I was not there at the time of the oil change. I think I was wrong and it was on the drain plug magnet.

The mechanic told me that when he changed the oil he found this on the magnet of the filter. But my filter does not have a magnet. I opened one 3-4 days ago and there is nothing magnetic there. So I guess my initial post was wrong and that these tiny pieces (most probably from the oil lifter) where on the drain plug magnet and not the filter itself.

Thank you - Andronikos,

[mreid]

Okay, that makes a big difference. Part of troubleshooting is to assess symptoms and draw relavent conclusions as to possible causes. You then start with the easiest potential problem and work your way back or in the case of electrical problems half split the problem (check the middle of a circuit in order to eliminate half of the circuit as the potential problem). In both cases visual inspections are the first step in troubleshooting.

So, we have:

1. parts that look like hydraulic lifter guts in the oil pan.
2. wet spark plugs on one side of the engine
3. poor acceleration
4. engine ticking

If all of these are related and caused by the same problem, then I suspect a valve train issue. First step, remove valve covers and visually inspect rockers, push rods, valve springs and valve stem tips. A static visual inspection wil show you where the lifter malfunctioned immediately. But what caused it? Why are other spark plugs wet?

One potential answer is that the valves are improperly adjusted. This could cause poor acceleration (over tight would lower compression), wet plugs (intake charge not completely burned), and in the extreme broken lifter (too much preload/no lash puts excess pressure on the lifter). So, manually rotate the engine to TDC on the compression stroke for number 1. Wiggle the rockers. You should be able to barely wiggle them both and be able to rotate the pushrods with your fingers. If you suspect a problem, back off both adjusting nuts and retighten to zero lash plus 1/2 turn. Rotate the engine 90 degrees and make the same check with the next cylinder in the firing order (number 3 on your engine). Continue this until you have checked all 8 cylinders (two rotations of your engine). If all this checks out, then we will check valve train geometry (how the rocker tip rides on the valve tip), but let us know what you find before we go on. I'm betting you will find the problem before we get to geometry. Good luck my friend!

Mark

[madmaxx]

Buy a book and read in detail.

[andronikos916]

Hi guys,

I opened the valve covers...
here is the complete video of removing the valve covers: YouTube - ‪408w_cobra_valvecovers.mov‬‏

Long story sort:
I have 2 rocker arms complete loose inside the valve cover and 2 rocker studs broken.

Here are some images :












Thank you - Andronikos,

[392cobra]

Looks to be that the retainers are contacting the bottom of the rocker arms.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by 392cobra

Looks to be that the retainers are contacting the bottom of the rocker arms.

Most definately.

You have a clearance issue with the valve retainer.

How many threads do they rocker nuts engage the stud by? It seems the locking grub screw is a long way down inside the nut.

I'd say you need possibly all of this: a different rocker arm, a lash cap, longer studs, longer pushrods. And check for clearance everywhere, including the roller contact pattern on the valve stem.