Change of oil and found metallic spring etc inside - need your advise. - Page 5

Curt C. · #81 (**permalink**) 05-24-2011, 09:59 AM

Understood. He appears to have a good reputation amongst most of the members here and other engine builders. With hope there will be no damage. Keep us posted on the cause so we can learn along with you.

andronikos916 · #82 (**permalink**) 05-24-2011, 10:12 AM

Yes I will let you know guys. Tomorrow will be an important day for my "health".

Best Andronikos,

Jac Mac · #83 (**permalink**) 05-24-2011, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andronikos916

Yes that RTV silicone was super strong!

I used a very sharp and thin blade and cut it. Then was easy. Had to remove the distributor out also.

Ok here are the pics. I will upload entire video tomorrow but I think the pics showing the damage:

Best - Andronikos,

Not sure that anyone has picked this yet, but it would appear that this whole problem has started from using the Ford Roller Cam lifter components in what is a non roller cam block, you should use roller lifters with a link bar setup similar to normal mechanical roller lifters in the type of cyl block used here, the whole valve train assy needs to be re-evaluated for this motor, includeing any valve piston contact issues along with what appears to be retainer/rocker contact

DAVID GAGNARD · #84 (**permalink**) 05-24-2011, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Not sure that anyone has picked this yet, but it would appear that this whole problem has started from using the Ford Roller Cam lifter components in what is a non roller cam block, you should use roller lifters with a link bar setup similar to normal mechanical roller lifters in the type of cyl block used here, the whole valve train assy needs to be re-evaluated for this motor, includeing any valve piston contact issues along with what appears to be retainer/rocker contact
__________________

Good point, I do see a number of other little things that should/should not be in this type of performance stroker motor.....definetly a major problem with the valve train geometry, and unless than is rectified, the same thing will continue to happen with this engine.....
David

Wbulk · #85 (**permalink**) 05-24-2011, 08:32 PM

I believe the flat tappet blocks went to 91 and the rollers started in 92. I have read the roller blocks have a casting number of F4TE. The lifter bores are taller. The number should be above the starter. That sure looks like the pre 92 block.

The older blocks can use a standard base circle cam with after market link bar and lifters, or a small base circle cam with 302 HO roller lifters. So this may have the small base circle cam in it. You can check to see if a standard base circle cam was installed by turning the engine over by hand while watching the link bars. The bars should remain flat and not be pushed up at all as the lifter moves up and down. In looking at the pictures, the lifters that are up look like the link bar is flat like they are supposed to be.

Wayne

Wbulk · #86 (**permalink**) 05-24-2011, 09:52 PM

Andronikos, I took some of your pictures and blew them up 200%. It sure looks likes some of those lifters are adjusted wrong. Look at cylinder #6 lifters, the second pair from the front on the drives side. Where the push rod sets in the lifter plunger it looks like one plunger is a lot lower below the retainer clip than the other lifter. The adjustment normally is 1/2 turn when the lifter is on the base circle. Yes the oil can bleed out from setting but not that much so soon. Normally that 1/2 turn pushes the plunger that amount below the retaining clip. They should all look about the same.

Jac Mac · #87 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 01:11 AM

If you look at all the lifters that are open/ raised you will see that they have bled down to some extent, very hard to be definitive on that one without knowing time it has sat in partial dismantled state.
I stand by my earlier post, this motor needs a rethink on the valve train components, particularly in view of the block chosen as a base, given that I would have to wonder about the rest of the engine combination...but then I dont know anymore than what we have seen here, the oil pressure obviously went west when the lifter jammed up, but if its got a restrictor kit & the lifters in question are at very end of oil circuit that might not be critical, one question, from the original posters comments the car might have been driven some distance with the 'ticking' sound, bet the cam lobe is not too flash on those lifters...

Gaz64 · #88 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 02:24 AM

Wbulk, I think you are looking at a valve that's open and the lifter has bled down.

They are others similar in the pics, they probably bled down with lower than normal oil pressure since at least one lifter has come out of it's bore, and two lifters have internal parts failure.

One can only check lifter preload for each valve when the valve is shut with the the lifter on the base circle of the cam.

Wbulk · #89 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 06:17 AM

Gas64 you may be right. Especially if he ran it after the initial failure. I wonder if Andronikos ever noticed his oil pressure before he shut it off the last time.

mreid · #90 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 08:16 AM

Ford started using roller cams in the Mustang in 1985. Number 8 cylinder where the lifter is pushed out of the bore is potentially a problem and the cam lobe should be checked, but I'm betting it is okay as the lifter kept the correct orientation. The biggest unknown is how long the engine was run like this. The secondary damage is actually a bigger concern at this point than the initial root cause. I would pull the cam and inspect the lobes and bearing surfaces and the pan to check the crank. I'm trying to avoid a complete rebuild for someone who is not in the US.

As for the root cause of all this, there are so many potential issues with the valve train that it needs to start over. At first I thought the push rods were too short, but with the rocker retainer locks so low in the retainer nut, a longer push rod would not allow enough stud thread for safe installation. So then the studs themselves are too short, but that doesn't make a lot of sense either. Wrong rockers? It doesn't appear that is the issue. Frankly, there are so many issues, the engine builder needs to just make this right. But then I don't know that whole story and probably never will.

DAVID GAGNARD · #91 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 08:38 AM

According to the profile,I think he's in Florida,but originally from Greece......
If I understood his previous post, he said he has driven the car about 150 miles and it was running the same when he bought it to now,he said he was 99.99% sure....that's a lot of time on an engine with this problem....

Quote:

As for the root cause of all this, there are so many potential issues with the valve train that it needs to start over. At first I thought the push rods were too short, but with the rocker retainer locks so low in the retainer nut, a longer push rod would not allow enough stud thread for safe installation. So then the studs themselves are too short, but that doesn't make a lot of sense either. Wrong rockers? It doesn't appear that is the issue. Frankly, there are so many issues, the engine builder needs to just make this right. But then I don't know that whole story and probably never will.

I agree, that's why I would want to do a tear down and check out the rest of the engine, with the run time on it after the failure,one can't be sure what else could have been damaged internally....
Overall,not good........
David

MAStuart · #92 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 09:25 AM

On these motors oil goes to the gauge before the bearings. No oil to the gauge........ no oil or little to the bearings. When it spit the lifter out is when the gauge quit. Oil was still pumping in the engine but takes the path of least resistance. So most of the oil was flowing out where the lifter was missing. Please check your rod and main bearings. Mark

andronikos916 · #93 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 01:18 PM

Hello guys,

I am back from the mechanic - after we check most of the stuff.
We have not yet removed the cylinder heads yet but we did pretty good gob I think. I first want to talk with Eric since he knows every detail of my engine...

So I will try to answer your questions:

Wbulk: I have Super Hi - Resolution pics. I can upload them if you want better images.

Gaz64: After opening the intake only 1 lifter has a failure. The other one seems ok - I think it is the the stud or something else that failed...

mreid: I am also trying to avoid full re-built. It is really difficult for me to get ( I live in Athens, Greece - I was in FL for studies. :-) and test different parts. Everything I test I basically have to pay. I can not just switch between rockers or different studs / pushrods etc. I will ask Eric. I believe he is the only one who can answer that.

DAVID GAGNARD: Yes the car driving was like that. I bought it with around 690miles. I did another 150miles. There was no change in the car's behavior since the day I bought it. It is my 1st cobra / muscle car etc... So it was not easy for me to know if something was ok or it is just normal engine operation that needed carb tuning. I believe I am more experienced now. :-)

MAStuart: Oil Psi Gauge died 2-3 days (50-60miles) before the "famous" oil change. Around 800miles in total.

Thank you - Andronikos,

MAStuart · #94 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 01:58 PM

When that lifter came out oil pressure would have dropped to zero or at least very low! Mark

Gaz64 · #95 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 02:22 PM

So you drove it for 50-60 miles with little or no oil pressure?

Even though you thought the gauge was faulty?

How much noise was the engine making?

It must have been running rough, misfiring with 2 cylinders out.

andronikos916 · #96 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 02:32 PM

Yes - that is correct - the gauge failed.
The car's engine was not making any more or less noise. It was exactly the same since day 1. So I took it to the mechanic for changing the oil and check the oil psi gauge and the I found these tiny parts inside.

At the beginning (as seen on 1st page) I thought, that these parts where from the psi oil sensor. So I took the car back home (10miles) and start uploading images and created that Thread. Since then I never drove the car again.

Best - Andron,

MAStuart · #97 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 02:43 PM

There is a good chance there is not a thing wrong with your gauge. No oil pressure from the lifter out of its bore. Mark

andronikos916 · #98 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAStuart

There is a good chance there is not a thing wrong with your gauge. No oil pressure from the lifter out of its bore. Mark

Yes I realize that now.

MAStuart · #99 (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 05:40 PM

There is a chance the bearing will be ok. The main and rod bearings are oiled before the lifter galley......just would not have very much pressure. Mark

mreid · #**100** (**permalink**) 05-25-2011, 09:37 PM

Okay, since we're betting, I'm betting that the main bearings, rod bearings, cam, and cam bearings are fine. Replace all of the lifters, ensure the push rods and rockers are correct for the heads and valve springs, properly adjust the rockers and observe valve train geometry while rotating the engine by hand two times, use a different intake gasket than current, and put the engine back together. Go about your business.

If the engine then fails due to one of the things I'm betting are good, you then do what you might do now anyway. You're playing the odds and I'd like to see you win.