Change of oil and found metallic spring etc inside - need your advise. - Page 6

andronikos916 · #**101** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 01:39 PM

Hello guys,

Here are the pics and the video.

In summary:

- Collect all broken parts, to check if there are any missing.
The only thing that still missing is the "C" clip of one of the
lifter. The other lifter that had the "failure" seems ok. So maybe it
was not a lifter failure but a stud failure or the metalic piece that
is holding the lifters maybe. Do not know...

- Check the damaged push-rods if are bended
They seem ok. Watch the video around: 3:20

- Check the lifter adjustment (preload) on another lifter
Not sure here. It needed around 3/4 of a full turn to start moving
up-down. Some needed less turn. See video around 4:10

- Do the leak down test for possible damage on valves or pistons
The valves have some leaks. Of course the piston rings have leak (that
is normal) but you can see the bubbles? Are not perfect in my opinion.
But I think there was no hit / damage - seems they all have the same
leak. I think that need to fix that since is resulting in loosing
performance?

- Drop pan inspect rods and crank
They look ok.

Note: If you look closer to the bottom of the rocker arms - most of
them have serious contact with the valve spring cap. Also the valve
"tip" is not higher that the valve spring cap. They are about the same
height. Is that normal? Look at image: (valve_cap_side_small.jpg).

Another damage that we have found is in the distributor rod. I am not
sure what is the name of it. How this is damaged - I have no idea. I
took it out very gently so it was not dis-assembly error. Trust me on
that! After all, this rod has some strength and thickness - no way I
can break it with my hands.

I am thinking to also open the cylinder heads to check if the is any
rod damage / bend?
Also to improve the valves and cylinder heads to have no leak. The
reason I am thinking that is because if the exhaust valve was not
working then fuel was going in and then? Maybe the piston vs fuel
liquid bend the rod? Is that possible?

In case I forgot something I will add it...
Also if you need hi-resolution pics let me know....

Best - Andronikos,

Video: YouTube - ‪test_may25_720p.mov‬&rlm;

Hi-Res: http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/oil_pumprod.jpg

mreid · #**102** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 02:38 PM

I think you just found the c-clip. It's in the oil pump. The crank drives the cam, the cam drives the distributor, and the distributor drives the oil pump (through that twisted rod). It looks like your oil pump seized and that rod is designed to twist and break rather than cause even more damage. The valve tip/retainer/locks are correct. It's hard to tell from the pictures why the bottom of the rockers hits the retainer (what you call the valve spring cap). I would replace all the lifters, rockers, and push rods, as well as the oil pump and drive. However, as you said, let's hear what Eric has to say.

DAVID GAGNARD · #**103** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 02:55 PM

Also, when the oil pump shaft broke,your oil pressure went to zero, you had NO oil pressure,no oil pumping thru the engine...You can't get the other end of the oil pump shaft out from the top/distributor hole because it has a clip on it to keep this from happeneing, it can only come out from the bottom of the engine after you remove the oil pump.....Your gauge may not have been faulty,cause you had no oil pressure, how long did your drive it like this???? How the engine didn't sieze up is a miracle......
The rockers hitting the valve spring retainers is not good as is the marks on the rocker studs, this indicates all these parts are mismatched or installed wrong......something definetly out of wack in the valve trane geometry....

Leaking exhaust valve indicates bent valve, again not good.....I wouldn't go any further at this point without pulling the engine out and doing a complete teardown....if I rememebr right, you drove it some (maybe 10 miles) with zero oil pressure on the gauge??? that's not good, I'm betting your bearing while they didn't sieze are scarred up badly and would need replacing, and possibly need the crankshaft to be polished or turned........
all in all, not good, way too much wrong with this engine to go further without a teardown, IMHO of course......

David

Jac Mac · #**104** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 03:52 PM

Have you removed the rod bearing caps to inspect the rod bearings yet, oil in the pump rotor means nothing, once the pumpdrive sheared what oil was on pressure side of pump would just stay there.
I dont bet on motors , 'do it once & do it right', my advice , forget about 'Eric' or whomever did the first build & find someone who is conversant with the engine, or at least someone who is prepared to do the research & take the time to learn how to do it right, be prepared to be patient & pay that person a fair amount for his time. looks like you might be needing his services again in the future
The number of 'non compatible' parts & bad engine building practices in the initial build of this motor is just 'bad', no other way to describe it! One other thing, when an oil pressure gauge drops to zero, or a temp gauge ,goes of the clock', It means stop now, right now & find out what the problem is, DO NOT DRIVE HOME thinking what might be the problem. In forty plus years of motoring I have never seen an oil pressure problem get better by doing a few more miles........

Hope I have not spoilt anyone's sensitivities with that piece of wisdom

andronikos916 · #**105** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 04:16 PM

More pics - under the car with the Oil Pan removed. I uploaded the hi-resolution images so you can better see details.

Do you believe (maybe) that because the oil I had inside the engine was 1ich higher than normal that prevent the excessive damage inside the engine (bearings, rods etc)? Or maybe that is the reason why things went bad? Of course I have not opened the engine - so deep yet (trying to avoid it) - to know what else I will find bad / damaged... Just thinking loud now.

http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3882.JPG
http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3883.JPG
http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3884.JPG
http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3885.JPG
http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3886.JPG
http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3887.JPG
http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3888.JPG
http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3889.JPG
http://www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/IMG_3890.JPG

Thank you - Andronikos,

392cobra · #**106** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andronikos916

Do you believe (maybe) that because the oil I had inside the engine was 1ich higher than normal that prevent the excessive damage inside the engine (bearings, rods etc)? Or maybe that is the reason why things went bad? Of course I have not opened the engine - so deep yet (trying to avoid it) - to know what else I will find bad / damaged... Just thinking loud now.

Thank you - Andronikos,

The oil level didn't prevent or cause you any damage.

The only mistake,a BIG one though,was not believing your oil pressure gauge. I believe you learned the lesson.

The root cause of this disaster is the poor quality of workmanship in building this engine.

I'd be real surprised if Eric does anything to help you on this.Not too sure I'd accept it anyway.

andronikos916 · #**107** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 04:55 PM

Ok so how to do it correct this time? How can I feel safe after next rebuilt?

I know gaskets where wrong. The rocker arms should not touch the valve retainer cap. Do I need longer push rods? How to check that? Maybe longer rocker arm studs? What rocker arms to get - what ratio? What about the valve leak? Is this normal? ..you know so many questions. Known the theory is very important for me - since I believe I can apply it with my mechanic.

My mechanic is good - but not experienced with these engines - so basically I think this will be a crazy rebuilt process for me...

Best - Andronikos,

STL Mark · #**108** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 05:01 PM

You could find a tech that has experience. Basically, the lump needs to be pulled, torn down, and rebuilt properly from the bottom up - without guesswork. OR - maybe be cheaper in your situation - order a new crate engine from Ford - and put the old one on e-bay part by part.

Been there Bud.
Good Luck.

cdnus · #**109** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 05:15 PM

If you notice the brownish colour of the connecting rod cap second from the rear,that indicates overheating & a burnt bearing & crank journal.
Do not waste time or money on this as it sits. Go for a complete rebuild or you will be chasing this monster forever.
JMO

Craig

DAVID GAGNARD · #**110** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STL Mark

You could find a tech that has experience. Basically, the lump needs to be pulled, torn down, and rebuilt properly from the bottom up - without guesswork. OR - maybe be cheaper in your situation - order a new crate engine from Ford - and put the old one on e-bay part by part.

Been there Bud.
Good Luck.

I agree 100%.........
Andronikos, the only I can see good in your pictures is a nice water pump and some nice ARP head and main studs, the rest of what I can see is not top shelf parts, some,IMO are poor quality parts, definetly mis-matched parts for the application and definetly poor quality assembly of those poor quality parts.......the list is too long with what's wrong with this particular engine...

Quote:

If you notice the brownish colour of the connecting rod cap second from the rear,that indicates overheating & a burnt bearing & crank journal.
Do not waste time or money on this as it sits.

Agreed again, you have one burnt rod and rod bearing,the crankshaft will be damaged, maybe beyound repair, you will not know until you tear it all down...to rebuild this engine, you'll need to revamp the entire valve trane and who knows what else.it's not worth it, get a crate engine and install, take this engine down and sell the undamaged parts and pieces and recoup what you can............
Just from what pictures you've posted,I see way too much that I don't like in this engine and I'm certainly no great engine builder by any stretch,just a garage mechanic.......

I know this is not what you expected or wanted to see and hear, but it's the facts, your pictures don't lie........

best of luck with whatever you decide......
David

Curt C. · #**111** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 09:29 PM

To confirm, pull the main cap on second from the rear. Two bolts. The condition of the bearing will speak volumes. Unfortunately, I have to agree with David on all counts based on what we have seen to date.

Gaz64 · #**112** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 09:36 PM

I'm surprised it has only one big end cap discoloured.

I would say EVERY bearing is damaged, and I agree with what others have said, there will way too much damage inside there.

Your "engine builder" doesn't seem to know how to assemble a high performance engine.
The valvetrain is the best example of this, find a real engine builder who understands ALL the clearance checks to perform during the mockup assembly.

mreid · #**113** (**permalink**) 05-27-2011, 09:45 PM

Well, I've tried every way I know to save you from a complete rebuild. When you said the crank, rods, and bearings were fine, I cheered thinking you would be okay simply sorting out the valve train. Unfortunately, after seeing these latest pictures, I have to agree with everyone else. This engine is toast. Not just from the burnt bearings, but from the array of mismatched parts. If PE provided this engine, they should be ashamed.

I believe the root cause is the poorly matched valve train components. They were the cause of the earlier poor performance when they were keeping the valves from sealing properly and then when a lifter failed, your oil pump ate a chunk of metal causing it to seize, shearing the drive shaft and causing your oil pressure gauge to go to zero. In the future, you have the gauge for this purpose. First you believe it until it is proven wrong. You continued to drive the car with no oil to the bearings thinking the gauge failed. That finished it off. Lesson learned the hard way, but you never should have been put in this situation. There are a lot of questions for the previous owner and the engine builder.

andronikos916 · #**114** (**permalink**) 05-28-2011, 02:34 AM

...nothing to say guys. Nobody has ever opened this engine before - nor the previous customer. I was talking to the phone 5min ago. I know the guy. After all why to open a brand new engine with less that 700miles? The car was with 690miles when I got it...Yes I drove more that 10miles with psi gauge to zero. That is my mistake - but why to fail? That is definitely not my fault. Something was not correct from the very beginning. Anyway....

Theoretically speaking who do you consider a good mechanic to rebuilt that engine? What I can do now is to take the entire engine out and ship t to US (to a good engine builder) and then basically have faith to him that he will do great job. Or if PE and Eric takes responsibility about the mismatched parts to trust him. I am a person that I believe in human errors and 2nd chances...

Another crazy idea, is to ask from that mechanic to come here and rebuilt it here with me. You know to cover the travel expenses and have a week of holidays in Greece etc... :-) This way I will learn also.

Last idea - and I know might sound crazy is to decide that I will learn everything and I will rebuilt it myself very slowly. Of course I will need your input and great help - it might sound crazy now, but this will a life time experience.

Maybe I am upset now - it is logical that my mind is not thinking clear now. I will give a couple of days off and enjoy my life.

Best - Andronikos,

392cobra · #**115** (**permalink**) 05-28-2011, 08:14 AM

It's really sad that you are having to go through this.

I would suggest you get some advise from some professionals on what direction to take.
I would guess that ordering a complete turn key engine would be a better way than trying to deal with your present engine.Shipping it to the USA or attempting to rebuild it ,with the needed machining,in Greece doesn't seem to me to be the right direction.

Here are two known professionals I would contact and discuss all your wants and options with :

Brent Lykins (502) 759-1431 brent@b2motorsportsllc.com
B2 Motorsports, LLC Products

Keith Craft (807) 246-7460
Keith Craft Performance Engines

DAVID GAGNARD · #**116** (**permalink**) 05-28-2011, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 392cobra

It's really sad that you are having to go through this.

I would suggest you get some advise from some professionals on what direction to take.
I would guess that ordering a complete turn key engine would be a better way than trying to deal with your present engine.Shipping it to the USA or attempting to rebuild it ,with the needed machining,in Greece doesn't seem to me to be the right direction.

Here are two known professionals I would contact and discuss all your wants and options with :

Brent Lykins (502) 759-1431 brent@b2motorsportsllc.com
b2motorsportsllc.com

Keith Craft (807) 246-7460 keithcraft.com

+1....My suggestion would be to contact either of the 2 mentioned above and have a "long block assembly" built and shipped to you...you would then re-use your oil pan/starter/valve covers/distributor/intake manifold/carb/water pump/timing chain cover/harmonic balancer/pulleys and a few little odds and ends, you and your mechanic would then install these parts from your present motor to the new one and install in your car.....it would be the most cost effective way to get you back on the road and probably the quickest also......
trying to re-build your present engine is not the best choice considering your location and the amount of damage and the engine itself.......

BTW: ever figure out what brand cylinder heads are on the engine???

David

Wbulk · #**117** (**permalink**) 05-28-2011, 01:03 PM

After all that why didn't you pull some of the bearing caps as suggested? If you pull a rod cap there should be a numbers stamped on the same side to match them back up again. The main bearings are numbered and have an arrow towards the front so you don't put them on backwards.
At this point do we know the oil pump failed causing the lifters to bleed down and fail and bearings to get destroyed. But we are not really sure on the bearings yet because none of the caps have been pulled. If that one rod got that hot usually it is obvious if you wiggle it back and forth. And why just that one. Pull that cap and let's see.

andronikos916 · #**118** (**permalink**) 05-28-2011, 01:11 PM

I will pull all rod bearing caps on Monday then (as usual I will take pics). Also I'll test if the oil sensor is actually working.

Best - Andronikos,

Wbulk · #**119** (**permalink**) 05-28-2011, 03:02 PM

Andronikos, I have torn down engines with one audible bearing bad and lucked out with the crank still good. I have seen it go the other way plenty of times to. Sometimes you luck out. I didn't read the cause of that oil pump failure or was it just the rod. Is it a high volume pump. I can't see the lifter clip making it past the oil pump screen.

If by some chance you luck out with the crank then you have more options. You can always throw money at this thing but I think you need to know what you have first. Find out about the bearings and then let's brain storm and debate the situation considering where you live.

Gaz64 · #**120** (**permalink**) 05-28-2011, 03:06 PM

I'd say he has a high volume pump and a standard pump driveshaft.

Tight clearances, big pump and weak shaft.

Weak shaft is the weak link.

Most would agree to run a gauge AND a light, both can't lie at the same time.

Yes, he still has a chance, although very slim.