Will this combo work?

[YerDugliness]

I'm at a "fork in the road" in reference to my plans to upgrade power production on my engine in the Cobra. I thought I had made up my mind to freshen up the bore on the 5.0 HO block, have the mains line-honed and the deck surfaces squared up, and stuff it full of decent high RPM capable components.

However, as happens from time to time, I've been watching the ever-present "what engine should I buy/build?" threads and notice that the advice given (even by me) is almost universal...there is no replacement for displacement.

I've about decided I want to switch horses in the middle of the stream, all however many of them my 8.2" SBF provides. I have a 351 Cleveland block in the garage, 16 rods I can play with balancing and polishing, and everything needed to put the short block together.

Both engines will need new heads, intake, cam, lifters, and carb, so the amount of $$ to be spent will be relatively equal regardless of the direction I go.....so, the contributions of the rest of the drivetrain now come into play in making the decision.

I currently have a recently "freshened" WC T-5 transmission with the tall Overdrive gear, like it very much and would like to use it with whichever engine I end up building. I particularly like the gas mileage...with my current 5.0 I get right at 25 miles per gallon at highway speeds. I realize the current OD ratio would NOT be what a high-revving 8.2" small block would want, so I am leaning toward the stroked Cleveland (probably near the 393 CID range). I've driven many Cleveland-engined cars and loved the powerplant every time, it's just SO different from what I had in mind that it's taking a real toll on my "dream" of a high-revving small block, but......oh, well!!

I think I know the answer to this, but thought I'd ask, anyway. Will there be any problems with mating the 351C to the T-5? I know the bellhousing pattern ought to be the same, but what about flywheel/clutch issues? I realize that the Cleveland will probably tax the torque capacity of the T-5, but I do tend to drive rather conservatively (at least until I get it underway), so I think I could manage.

Has anyone ever had any experience with this combination?

Hoping to hear back from y'all .

Cheers from Dugly!!

[blykins]

Hop on over to the 351C forum and see some of the stuff that I do with the 393/408C engines. I love the Cleveland stuff and can make excellent power with even cast iron 4V heads (and I currently have some here in the shop).

As for the T5, don't expect it to live long, World Class or not. Cobras are traction limited, so that's in your favor, but if it ever hooks up on a wide open throttle upshift, you're spitting parts out. These things explode behind factory 5.0 Mustangs.

[YerDugliness]

Is this the 351C forum you're talking about, Brent?

Ford 335 "Cleveland" Series Engine Forum: Search ''

If so, I've been a member for quite a few years, but quit visiting the site about the time that the aluminum Cleveland blocks were being "promoted", before they were actually going to be cast. I found the forum difficult to navigate.

As for the heads, I'd much rather have the 2V AFD's...smaller ports to keep the low RPM intake charge velocity up there and adequate runner to support 600 horsepower. Not a bad combo...big power and streetability.

As for the flywheel/clutch issue, I've sorta figured out that the standard Cleveland flywheel and an appropriate clutch assembly would be the order of the day, just need to make sure the clutch disc is splined appropriately to fit the T-5.

At my age (I am older than aluminum foil) I'd really consider a dual-disc clutch, not so much for the increased "hookup" as for the reduced pedal pressure needed....and the increased clutch life would be another factor in the dual-disc clutch's favor. However, whether or not there is a Cleveland flywheel drilled and tapped to take the smaller pressure plate....well, that's something I'd rather leave up to you!

Cheers from Dugly

[BAsque1]

351 Cleveland -------------------eyes closed!!! One of the best engines ever.
Basque1

[blykins]

Yes, that's it. It's the same format as the FE forum and you get used to it over time.

The AFD's are a much better choice. I wasn't for sure what your budget was and if you intended to reuse some existing cast iron heads.

My Cleveland stuff is internally balanced, so any SBF 0 balance flywheel will work, just as long as you match the diameter to the bellhousing. Older Windsor/Cleveland stuff was 164T, new stuff is 157T. The new bellhousings (such as Quicktime) or the 5.0 bellhousings won't swallow up a 164T flywheel.

As for the clutch, a twin disc would probably be a bad idea in front of a T5. The twin discs will hold up to 800hp, so they will not slip/give in any way. When you put 500-600hp in front of a transmission that will only hold 300, you really don't want to continually shock the driveline. If you aim for 600hp, the T5 won't live very long anyway.

With that being said, the McLeod twin discs are universal in the fact that they include an adapter plate that will work with any flywheel pressure plate pattern. But if you're worried about pedal pressure, there are certainly ways around a stiff pedal.

[Wbulk]

I have been evaluating the same thing. Keep in mind that you most likely will have body cut out issues for the exhaust changing and air cleaner clearances. Motor mounts may have to change. These changes are seldom simple. I am leaning more towards a 331 stroker.

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by BAsque1

351 Cleveland -------------------eyes closed!!! One of the best engines ever.
Basque1

Agreed, no question, BAsque1 !!!

Originally Posted by Wbulk

I have been evaluating the same thing. Keep in mind that you most likely will have body cut out issues for the exhaust changing and air cleaner clearances. Motor mounts may have to change. These changes are seldom simple. I am leaning more towards a 331 stroker.

We're at the same fork in the road....a 331 SBF stroker was what I originally thought I wanted (although I am such a fan of the canted valve head design that a 331 CID stroked 8.2" SBF Clevor would actually be my first choice if there were suitable intakes available), if it weren't for that nagging voice telling me to listen to the advice that even I give.

I hadn't thought about header issues.....could continue to use my present headers with the 165R heads I had in mind....but, then, I've been looking for a reason to change my slip-fit sidepipes into flanged units, the canted valve heads would certainly make that a necessity. I am going to have to lower the engine even if I do an 8.2" SBF buildup, as I want an Air-Gap manifold and there's not adequate room at this point. I currently have only 3/8" clearance between the top of my air cleaner and the underside of the scoop....here, you can see:



My problem is that I really like the growl of a high-winding SBF and ALSO really like the great low and mid-range grunt that a Cleveland delivers.....it's a classic case of "You can't have your cake and eat it, too".

Originally Posted by blykins

My Cleveland stuff is internally balanced, so any SBF 0 balance flywheel will work, just as long as you match the diameter to the bellhousing. Older Windsor/Cleveland stuff was 164T, new stuff is 157T. The new bellhousings (such as Quicktime) or the 5.0 bellhousings won't swallow up a 164T flywheel...... if you're worried about pedal pressure, there are certainly ways around a stiff pedal.

blykins....again, you're right....a torquey Cleveland, even a standard displacement block, could probably make short work of my T-5. If I do go the Cleveland route, I'll have to drive it like a grandpa until I can afford a suitable upgrade. Actually, I think a well-built manual shift valve C-6 would be best behind a torquey, 393/408 Cleveland build.....but that's pure HERESY around here. But a Cleveland with a 157 tooth flywheel would fit into the factory bellhousing for the T-5, right? I understand about the twin-disc issue....I would most likely consult with you re: other methods to reduce the pedal effort.

Glad to know the T-5 would at least fit! A new transmission would be a deal-breaker for the Cleveland build...but a future replacement might just be a very real possibility, even if I don't tear the current T-5's guts out .

I realize that the driving style would by necessity be essentially polar opposites for the two engines...that's one of the reasons I seem to be taking so long to make decisions/purchases. Sadly, my current driving style (Honda VTEC V-6/automatic) seems to favor the Cleveland, but my in my dreams I'm always driving the 331!

[blykins]

We could do a 331/347 Clevor. The 4V heads would be too large for something like that, but the AFD 2V heads would probably work well. You need a smaller port with high velocity for the smaller engines.

There are intakes available....but most are single plane. If you're wanting to cruise around and get groceries, probably not the best situation on a small engine. If you're wanting to ring her up to 7000 and make power there, then they would fit the bill rather nicely.

[MAStuart]

Don't believe everything you hear. Had a used standard T5 out of a Mustang and put it behind a mild 302 in my 65 Fastback. Made literally hundreds of quarter mile passes with 8x26 Mickey Thompson slicks. Using nitrous on the launch. I broke 28 spline axles in this car, but the tranny held up flawlessly. This particular car needed an aggresive 11 inch clutch in it, because the best 10 1/2 in long style clutch would not hold it. Eventually I sold this to a guy who put it in a Jaguar with a Boss 302 and gave it no mercy. I seen him a few years later and he said it was just starting to grind when putting it in 2nd gear. They can handle a lot of abuse, but some people can break them. On a side note, I replace the T5 with a Richmond gear 5 speed, on the box it probably proclaimed "bullet proof transmission". Broke the input shaft the first weekend out. The biggest problem with that T5 is if you have a motor with a lot of cam and you don't have steep rear gears. The motor won't like it in overdrive. If you have steep gears, you need a motor that will rev 8000+ if you want to use first gear. Alternative set of heads for that 331 would be a set of Chi 3v's. I was a building a 331 with 3v's (185cc) for my Mustang, but decided that my Gurney West lake engine was still a pretty cool engine to keep in my Mustang. So I have these things sitting around now. Not sure what I am going to do with them, but I will probably finish building it sometime.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

but the tranny held up flawlessly.....

You must have been living right brother....

If you knew how many emails I get on people breaking these T5's...

Buddy of mine bought a brand new '94 Mustang GT, took it to the track and blew 3rd gear out of it first pass...with street tires and the stock 302.

Even the G-Force and Liberty T5's will not hold up to big block amounts of torque.