Roush 402IR 8 stack $44k ?

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by Keithc8

The main reason they deal with Roush is because he gives them about a 1000.00 per engine give or take a little. I have also had several of them tell me that they did not get their money.

Later, Keith

You keep making this claim, but it is false. There is no 1k commission on a crate 427R, not even close. What you fail to realize is the Roush business model is to sell through distributors that in some cases hold an inventory. In that type of business there has to be a margin for it to work. They have created a National and International brand. I see the Roush display at many high end car shows throughout the country ... never seen a Keith Craft display so I don't know?

There is a value there, some don't value it. That's fine, there's probably 2,000+ engine builders in the USA to choose from.

When a customer buys an installed engine, with all the other bits, that margin is gone anyway. We have to make deals to close sales.

All you need to do is line by line it and I'm happy to let it rest... but instead we can continue the "same parts, fake warranty, paying for the name chant".

[patrickt]

OK, forget Kirkham and forget ERA, is anyone else actually making any serious money off this Cobra hobby of ours? If I believed everything I read on this forum it seems that there is no real margin in anything.

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Know what Cashburn?
First off- I apologize for the personal insult to your (I think) screen name. Was out of line.
To be clear, I didn't single you out as a Roush dealer to dump on you. You just happen to be the only one of those that tried to explain/defend the Roush system.
Which also says something.
Let's agree to disagree. You continue your business and I'll continue to encourage non-builders to research power choices and their origins much more carefully.
Having said that, there were no falsehoods in any of my quote. A local SPF assembler allowed about 40 of us (Cobras) to coffee and chat at his shop weekly and I saw pallet after pallet of R's on the floor with the manila tags on the distributor.
Further, I used to market and write all tech for a HP crate engine outfit that used only their own castings.
427 Windsor: 525 HP: solid cam: pump gas:$10,295.
460 Windsor: 600 HP: roller cam: pump gas: $12,195
427 Windsor DRAG 630 HP: solid roller: race gas: $10,995
Aluminum blocks were a $2500 option. Could get the whole thing polished for $1300 more. Oh and Accel DFI was a $3500 option. Still not near any Roush numbers, am I?
Those were always conservative HP numbers 'cause if you sent one out that made 599HP instead of 600 they'd send it back *****ing.
They routinely made 540, 620 and between 680 and 718 HP respectively.
They went to the customer needing a water pump and fuel pump only. Warrantied 2 years.
So I didn't lie and I know what parts cost from the build sheets which I compiled and advertised.
Let's live to fight another day.

To be clear, the title Cashburn came from the simple fact that when we started in this business (and for me in particular) we basically lit the money on fire to get started and continue to burn it the whole way. If it was solely about the check we would have already checked out.

Yeah the engines arrive with a tag, and then in the mail with your warranty packet comes the actual dyno chart with serial number etc. In that same packet you fill out you see it's not an insurance company warranty, it's all done in house (at Roush). There's also a form to get you plate back with your engine serial number etc. on it (that will only have value to some, but it has value).

It sounds like you did marketing for World Industries. We considered their engines for 15 minutes and then started adding in all the components those prices did not include (no waterpump means no pulleys, belt, brackets, alternator, thermostat, water neck, it goes on and on) and suddenly we are at a price within 1-1.5k of the Roush price (but you still have to get all those other parts and make sure they lineup and fit etc.). Then you consider dyno claims and how they are tested, correction factor used, etc. and is the dyno number for your engine of the test engine etc.

Your prices also ignore inflation. But you can get the full polished option on the Roush for 1,200 today!

I'm not arguing, I'm stating my experience in the industry and having to put our name above the engine builder's name AND the chassis manufacturer's name.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by patrickt

is anyone else actually making any serious money off this Cobra hobby of ours? If I believed everything I read on this forum it seems that there is no real margin in anything.

don't kid yourself.... They all must be making a killing 'cos it's costing us all a fortune.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dimis

don't kid yourself.... They all must be making a killing 'cos it's costing us all a fortune.

Yep, I think you're right. With my cronies, the ones that are making the most dough are still constantly telling you that they're barely squeaking by....

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Cashburn

It sounds like you did marketing for World Industries. We considered their engines for 15 minutes and then started adding in all the components those prices did not include (no waterpump means no pulleys, belt, brackets, alternator, thermostat, water neck, it goes on and on) and suddenly we are at a price within 1-1.5k of the Roush price (but you still have to get all those other parts and make sure they lineup and fit etc.). Then you consider dyno claims and how they are tested, correction factor used, etc. and is the dyno number for your engine of the test engine etc.

Your prices also ignore inflation. But you can get the full polished option on the Roush for 1,200 today!

I'm not arguing, I'm stating my experience in the industry and having to put our name above the engine builder's name AND the chassis manufacturer's name.

No argument from me either and your point about ancillaries is fair but the price difference was greater for the power received. I think only the Engine Factory offers full complete crates with all desired ancillaries but there may be others.
I can vouch for the dyno results as I watched and documented all of them in prototype form. Any customer engine of the type that was even a little short was not 'crutched' on the dyno (by load factor)-it came off the stand and went back to the builder for tear-down. Every engine had it's own dyno sheets (up to 5 pulls after break-in) and it's number was it's number not just the prototype's.
Roush would not agree on price but if he had, every Roush would have a World block and heads...instead of Darts.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

OK, forget Kirkham and forget ERA, is anyone else actually making any serious money off this Cobra hobby of ours? If I believed everything I read on this forum it seems that there is no real margin in anything.

Patrick, you way too focused on money. Money is the root of all evil. Money doesn't buy happiness. And no doubt you've heard of Herzberg's Dual Structure Theory and Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. I don't remember money being mentioned prominently.

[dont]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Hopefully he will be happy come next month. If not, I already have a game plan on how I will turn the whole sordid incident in to an SPF Sucks, ERA Would Have Been Great thread.

Ahh the troll raises his ugly head again.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by dont

Ahh the troll raises his ugly head again.

Now Don, why would you take that so personally?

[dont]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Now Don, why would you take that so personally?

You remind me of Eddie Haskle.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by dont

You remind me of Eddie Haskle.

You make two posts a month and that's it? A Leave It To Beaver reference? OK....

[dont]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You make two posts a month and that's it? A Leave It To Beaver reference? OK....

Back on topic. Don't want to mess up my average.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by dont

Back on topic. Don't want to mess up my average.

Of course, but use your noggin Don, if TinMan's car craps out again when he gets it next month do you really think I'll be the one to turn the thread in to an SPF bashing frenzy? Now surely you can reason that one through.

[Keithc8]

Let me say this the Roush/Yates engine race program is a completely different deal involving different people. They have assembled some real good engine guys there and you will pay for a nice race engine but they make good power. R&D cost money and so does the equipment to do it on that level.
The crate engine deal is just that. A marketing guy saw a nich and a name he could use and put this program together. I would probably do the same as long as they did not mess up my name.
If anyone wants to have their own engine business and there seems to be a lot of people on here that do, give me a call and I will fix you up. You can then build what you want at the price you want. Just takes about a 2 million investment to have the right equipment, inventory and the right people to do the job. I would even stay on and help.

Thanks, Keith Craft

[fordracing65]

Your the man Kieth, the Roush Yates boys are good ol southern racers like yourself, about power and quality, keep building great engines, we can only wish the posers knew who they were.

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Surely all the more reason to be cheaper again...

There's no way I'd give Roush a check a head of KC (or Barry, or Blynkins for that matter).

Sorry, the only nice thing I can say about Roush is - they sure have some pretty valve covers

Ouch...............tin-man

[dont]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Of course, but use your noggin Don, if TinMan's car craps out again when he gets it next month do you really think I'll be the one to turn the thread in to an SPF bashing frenzy? Now surely you can reason that one through.

If it craps out how would that be SPF's fault. SPF builds rollers. They do not build the engine. They do not do the installs. And yes you made me go over my average

[Cashburn]

While we are covering all bases the tag gives oil pressure... Not temp?

[madmaxx]

Exactly why warranties are useless with these things. So many different suppliers, and not one entity does everything. If you like to spend alot of money and be told what you cant do and like waiting and hoping that great customer service will come to fruition get a new one with warranty.

Originally Posted by dont

If it craps out how would that be SPF's fault. SPF builds rollers. They do not build the engine. They do not do the installs. And yes you made me go over my average

[tin-man]

The main reason why I chose a Roush engine was based on brand and their presentation of the engines they offer. This decision was also confirmed after seeing the Roush engine displays at the SEMA shows. Also, their specs were very compelling to me, particularly their write up on their polished 511IRFE since I wanted the biggest baddest engine with applicable wow factor I could afford..

I am sorry to say this to you Keith but your name was not know to me at the time and the engine presentations when I finally visited your site did not create the same level of excitement that Roush did and thus I did not get the overall lust factor to purchase one of your offerings. All things considered and specs being on the same level the visuals for the Roush polished engines did it for me. That said, two years on, and still waiting for my car and after spending more time on these threads I realize your products are well received and in retrospect had I know what I know today, I would have gone with your company. While far be it for me to say what is right or wrong in how products are presented, presence and presentation is what pulls in the punters such as myself..

I can also say the same thing for Superformance vs Kirkham, Superformance represented a quality build, looked good and was offered at what I considered as a reasonable price.Whereas the Kirkham was priced out of my range or so I thought. Given I have dropped US$125,000 on my dream Cobra, I am of the opinion I could have done better with an all aluminum hand build Kirkham and a Keithcraft engine, but the decision was made and I must live with that.

Maybe there is a lesson here in that their are a lot of guys such as myself who will be retiring sooner rather than later and are prepared to spend whatever it takes to satisfy their dream of owning a Cobra, thus its how well the various people who are in the business of supplying these products present their offerings and hook into the mindset of the potential buyers. From my personal point of view its first visual and then supported by specs and finally price, Price being the last consideration.

These are my personal opinions and reasons why I went with the companies I did.

Cheers, John, AKA, tin-man