Club Cobra Gas-N Exhaust  

Go Back   Club Cobra > Engine Building, Tuning, and Induction > Small Block Talk

MMG Superformance
Nevada Classics
Keith Craft Racing
Main Menu
Module Jump:
Nevada Classics
Nevada Classics
MMG Superformance
Advertise at CC
Banner Ad Rates
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
December 2024
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31        

Kirkham Motorsports

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 02:10 PM
Rick Parker's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: California, Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: NAF 289 Slabside Early Comp Car with 289 Webers and all the goodies. Cancelling the efforts of several Priuses
Posts: 6,592
Not Ranked     
Default Lost Oil Pressure

Today I went with my Son to Thunderhill Raceway for an open track event. He. Has a nice '91 Mustang 5.0 coupe. Brembo brakes, body kit to allow 9" wheels and a lot of suspension work but still retains the stock 5.0 engine. After pounding it pretty hard and using a 6000 RPM redline, we ended the first and our only session and heard valvetrain noise and he said 0 oil pressure. There was no noise from rods or mains. Oil is fresh Royal Purple. I'm thinking a plug popped out of one of the lifter galleys or the one at the top of the block near the rear OR the pump bypass stuck open. Stay tuned, news at 11:00.
__________________
Rick

As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never be pointing the wrong way
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 02:21 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,078
Not Ranked     
Default

Bummer Rick but it might have out-G'd the oil pan. Is it a baffled pan??
__________________
Chas.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 02:35 PM
WildBill3's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Raytown, mo
Cobra Make, Engine: FFR Coupe SOLD.Current 66 Mustang
Posts: 962
Not Ranked     
Default

Was it still running?we have twisted a dist gear pin before.
__________________
I agree Life is way to short to worry about gas milage.Other rides Crewcab Super Duty F350 Ford,Shlby Charger,66Mustang/Frankinstang,Chevy Van,KTM Dualsport,FFR Daytona Coupe SOLD... RUN N GUN 06,07,08,09 Hallet 09,
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 02:52 PM
mreid's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chester Springs, PA
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham 289 FIA #690, FRPP 427 Boss engine
Posts: 764
Not Ranked     
Default

I'm thinking distributor gear also. Good luck and let us know what you find.
__________________
RCR GT40 SOLD to Fast 5
Kirkham #690 289 FIA
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 03:24 PM
Rick Parker's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: California, Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: NAF 289 Slabside Early Comp Car with 289 Webers and all the goodies. Cancelling the efforts of several Priuses
Posts: 6,592
Not Ranked     
Default

No, it is still running OK. "0" indcated pressure but no noise Fromm bottom end, just not pressurizing, causing lifter clatter. Otherwise we were having a good time. Major internal "Leak".
__________________
Rick

As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never be pointing the wrong way

Last edited by Rick Parker; 11-14-2011 at 05:36 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 03:49 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: St. Louisville, Oh
Cobra Make, Engine: A&C 67 427 cobra SB
Posts: 2,445
Not Ranked     
Default

Isn't there a whimpy shaft between the distributor and the oil pump that can fail? I believe the engine can continue to run perfectly, but the oil pump is not getting turned.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 04:00 PM
Rick Parker's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: California, Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: NAF 289 Slabside Early Comp Car with 289 Webers and all the goodies. Cancelling the efforts of several Priuses
Posts: 6,592
Not Ranked     
Default

I believe if the shaft was sheared. The lower end would be hammering.
__________________
Rick

As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never be pointing the wrong way
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 04:02 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Louisville, KY
Cobra Make, Engine: I'm Cobra-less!
Posts: 9,417
Send a message via AIM to blykins
Not Ranked     
Default

Have you pulled the valve covers yet?
__________________
Lykins Motorsports, LLC
Custom SBF/Cleveland/FE/385 Series Engines
Street, Road Race, Drag Race, Pulling Truck
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 05:12 PM
Rick Parker's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: California, Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: NAF 289 Slabside Early Comp Car with 289 Webers and all the goodies. Cancelling the efforts of several Priuses
Posts: 6,592
Not Ranked     
Default

The alloy in the pump shaft needs to be upgraded to match that of my head. Pump is seized. Glad he had synthetic oil in it. I would have bet otherwise. Still can't believe it wasn't making "uglier" noises. I apologize for doubting your suggestions. No offense intended but I have been told my head is harder than Chinese arithmetic.
__________________
Rick

As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never be pointing the wrong way
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 05:16 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Louisville, KY
Cobra Make, Engine: I'm Cobra-less!
Posts: 9,417
Send a message via AIM to blykins
Not Ranked     
Default

So now the search is on for what broke and locked the pump up....
__________________
Lykins Motorsports, LLC
Custom SBF/Cleveland/FE/385 Series Engines
Street, Road Race, Drag Race, Pulling Truck
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 05:53 PM
Rick Parker's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: California, Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: NAF 289 Slabside Early Comp Car with 289 Webers and all the goodies. Cancelling the efforts of several Priuses
Posts: 6,592
Not Ranked     
Default

Zackly! The engine has had no special preparation. He looked high and low for a 5.0 Coupe and found this one after much searching, bought it and after further inspection realized the car had been used pretty hard. We removed the engine, checked and replaced the timing gears, chain and front cover, water pump, and valve cover gaskets. He did the suspension mods and then it became his weekend driver. Long term goal was to do this activity with it. Now he and I will focus on the engine. A Fox body coupe is quite a bit lighter than later cars and although they do have their faults, they respond well to a little suspension tweaking which is key to these events. The body is more ridgid than a hatchback and they weigh less too, win win.
__________________
Rick

As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never be pointing the wrong way
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 05:54 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Louisville, KY
Cobra Make, Engine: I'm Cobra-less!
Posts: 9,417
Send a message via AIM to blykins
Not Ranked     
Default

I'll make you a good deal on a stroker kit....
__________________
Lykins Motorsports, LLC
Custom SBF/Cleveland/FE/385 Series Engines
Street, Road Race, Drag Race, Pulling Truck
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:16 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: St. Louisville, Oh
Cobra Make, Engine: A&C 67 427 cobra SB
Posts: 2,445
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Parker View Post
I believe if the shaft was sheared. The lower end would be hammering.
It would not hammer until after significant bearing damage is done. Depending on conditions and time damage may not have happened yet.

I saw an engine drive around the block a couple times and get started several times with no shaft installed. It had about 15 minutes run time on assembly lube only. No damage. Well, it ran 50K miles before the car was sold. It was never pulled down and inspected.

It sure is an easy thing to check. Worth checking before digging deeper.

Oops. I missed your next post. I see you found the problem.

Last edited by olddog; 11-14-2011 at 06:21 PM.. Reason: Oops
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:29 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: St. Louisville, Oh
Cobra Make, Engine: A&C 67 427 cobra SB
Posts: 2,445
Not Ranked     
Default

ERA Chas may have the root cause nailed down. I f there is no foreign objects in the pump or broken parts, it likely got starved.

Accusump might be the ticket.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2011, 08:01 PM
Rick Parker's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: California, Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: NAF 289 Slabside Early Comp Car with 289 Webers and all the goodies. Cancelling the efforts of several Priuses
Posts: 6,592
Not Ranked     
Default

After riding in the car and realizing the "'G" forces incured throughout the event it is entirely possible the oil got pushed to the front of the car under braking or away from the pickup through one of the sweepers. I am not a fan of the rear sump 5.0 Mustang pan at all. I will definately suggest he change the pan for sure.
__________________
Rick

As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never be pointing the wrong way
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2011, 07:33 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,078
Not Ranked     
Default

I almost did the same thing on the back section of Bridgehampton back with the old 428 and truck pan. Watched the OP gauge wiggle it's way down to zero. Got off line, slowed and watched it flutter a bit. Made the pits, checked the level in 1/2 hour then drove it home. That was close-replaced it with SO and Canton RR pan.
__________________
Chas.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2012, 08:58 PM
Rick Parker's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: California, Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: NAF 289 Slabside Early Comp Car with 289 Webers and all the goodies. Cancelling the efforts of several Priuses
Posts: 6,592
Not Ranked     
Default

Chapter 2

My son and I finally had schedules that allowed us to begin to tackle this problem. Yesterday we pulled the pan and found small cylindrical bits of magnetic metal. It appeared to be a pieces that would form a circle with an OD of .250" and an ID somewhat smaller. I sent photos and bounced this off of Brent Lykins (thank you for taking my Saturday afternoon call). After some deep thinking and thought I believe the bits to be the collar that locks the axle on a Hydralic Roller lifter for a 302 Ford. There were bits in the pan and a piece in the locked pump. The screen on the OEM pump did not appear to be compromised so I muust assume the suction of the oil aginst the Metal "parted the screen" enough to allow it to pass. I looked at the screen with a magnifying glass and saw no damaged areas. The next operation will be to pull the Top End and inspect the lifters and their respective bores.

BTW...Milodon RR pan and Windage tray installed.
__________________
Rick

As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never be pointing the wrong way

Last edited by Rick Parker; 01-23-2012 at 08:48 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2012, 05:55 AM
Tom Wells's Avatar
Senior Club Cobra Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Augustine, FL
Cobra Make, Engine: E-M / Power Performance / 521 stroker / Holley HP EFI
Posts: 1,929
Not Ranked     
Default

Rick,

Accusump, dry sump and/or a proven road race pan (NOT Canton!).

I've watched my oil pressure gauge go to zero during a curve more than once and had to back out until it came back up.

My Canton "road race" pan was taken off several times to check the baffle door operation, pickup position and clearance. I finally concluded the pan was not at all effective.

I installed an Accusump (guess who makes it?) and the zero oil pressure symptoms went away.

Picture this: high G-load, high rpms pushing more than the usual amount of oil into the valve covers for a time and massive churning of the oil in the pan by the crankshaft in the vicinity of the oil pump pickup. Scary? Yep!

BTW, the crankshaft does tend to also push the oil toward one side of the pan and as far up the block on one side as it can. Crank scrapers are intended to help minimize this, but usually aren't sufficient by themselves.

I've seen small-blocks, big-blocks and mod motors trashed during track days. Most of the time it has been due to oil pressure loss.

Once you realize what's going on inside the oil pan during high rpm, high-G use, you'll wonder how the things survive at all! Kind of a testament to modern oil technology.

Jon Kaase has even had engines lose oil pressure on the dyno due to loss of oil pickup - it's a complex and frustrating technical challenge to fix. No easy way has been found.

So get the oil system some help and you won't regret it. A dry sump setup if your budget will allow; even that is less expensive than new engines..

Hope this helps,

Tom
__________________
Wells's law of engine size: If it matters what gear you're in, the engine's too small!
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2012, 07:45 AM
Dominik's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Cape Town, South Africa/Mainz, Germany,
Posts: 1,601
Not Ranked     
Default

Tell us a bit more about the g-forces and tires who allowed for such?
You didn't run on sliks, didn't you? But I believe there is some sticky rubber out there.

Is Thunderhill a banked race track? You do know that you have a little as 1 quart of oil in the pan at high revs?

Even though you pump seems to have seized by the tappet piece you may look at TWO culprits. Starved pump first.
__________________
If I don't respond anymore, that's because I can't log in
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2012, 08:56 AM
Rick Parker's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: California, Ca
Cobra Make, Engine: NAF 289 Slabside Early Comp Car with 289 Webers and all the goodies. Cancelling the efforts of several Priuses
Posts: 6,592
Not Ranked     
Default

Tom & Dominik:

Thanks for your responses.

D.... We are running slicks and big Brembo brakes and there is alot of elevation change, one turn in particular is called the Cyclone. I knew we faced potential oiling issues without a modified pan, but it was his car and he has a learning curve to experience. I was "Along for the ride".
__________________
Rick

As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never be pointing the wrong way
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubcobra.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Shelby American, any other replica manufacturer, Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by clubcobra.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Ford Motor Company, or Shelby American or any other manufacturer unless expressly noted by that entity. "Cobra" and the Cobra logo are registered trademarks for Ford Motor Co., Inc. clubcobra.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting clubcobra.com. For full policy documentation refer to the following link: CC Policy
Links monetized by VigLink