Ford Racing 427 burning oil - Page 4

68pony · #61 (**permalink**) 12-20-2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce

Yep, I have the orange seals. What a *****! What's wrong with them? Not tight enough on the valve stem?

Not sure, ford racing told me in there email they are not aware of a problem with the orange seals

well i know of 2 other 427's here in australia that the problem went away after changing the orange seals, i will find out hopefully by tomorrow if it has solved my problem, ive been dealing with Marty at ford racing his email is frpp@ford.com.
cheers chris ps more than likely not tight enough in my case fine when cold but as the oil got hot would start to smoke, the seals probably got soft anyway and not enough spring tention, once we get the seals off we will know.

crawleyscobra · #62 (**permalink**) 12-21-2011, 06:39 AM

Mine was shipped from Ford in Feb. 2011 and I noticed that it has the number 39 written on it in several locations. I'm thinking it was the 39th built. I have yet to start mine... still got a few things to finish before I can. I'm wondering if I should replace my seals before I go any farther or just wait and see if I'm burning oil or not and then change them if needed.

Luce · #63 (**permalink**) 12-21-2011, 09:42 AM

I'm on the fence with this one. A little oil consumption is OK on this thing. It's not like my daily drivers who's hoods only get raised every 12,000 miles by the Jiffy Lube guy.

A little oil getting by is a good thing...keeps the valve guides lubed. I just don't want an embarrassing amount of smoke from anywhere other than my back tires. I also feel like I need more reason that some of the other guys with orange seals have excessive smoke to start a complaint and waste the time arguing over $60 worth of seals. What a pain in the arse. Is anyone running one of these engines now without oil consumption problems? Is it a minor issue with a few engines or is across the board. For that matter, Is it across the board with the Z heads, including the ones shipped on the 392 previous to this engine? How about the other engines with the Z heads? Does anyone know what brand the orange seals are? All of the ones I saw on Summit look black.

Luce · #64 (**permalink**) 12-21-2011, 09:47 AM

If anyone has changed them yet, can you tell me what the sizes are so I can have them in hand before I change them. I may go ahead and buy them and have them in my tool box for later.

68pony · #65 (**permalink**) 12-21-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce

If anyone has changed them yet, can you tell me what the sizes are so I can have them in hand before I change them. I may go ahead and buy them and have them in my tool box for later.

We are changing mine today, i will let you know how it goes and which seals we used, the smoke coming out of mine was embarassing, i pulled over in front of a cafe and almost choked everyone to death from the smoke and i got some evil looks
cheers chris.

Luce · #66 (**permalink**) 12-21-2011, 05:43 PM

Yea, NO. I don't want to be making excuses for a motor that smokes like a piece of ...Well, this forum won't let me use my extended vocabulary.

Please, let me know what size they are.

68pony · #67 (**permalink**) 12-22-2011, 08:57 PM

Great news, no more smoke, the seals were the issue, i drove home from my mechanic about 20mins there was a bit of traffic pulled on to my driveway and let it idle for 5 minutes and nothing what a great sight, now look at the photo of 2 0f the seals( all were the same but took a photo of 2) what do you notice, they don't have a clip on the top part of the seal only the big centre part, the ones we put in were white but had a clip on the top part of the seal where it tappers down also my mechanic said there wasn't much tension on the main clips, this is the reason why they leaked, i will be sending the bill to ford racing after the new year for the removal of a perfectly sealed manifold and re install including gasket and the removal and re fit of new seals, i won't send them the bill for the loss of hear ive had through this

,lets see what they do i will send back half the seals to them and keep the other half incase they go missing in the mail, why would they fit crappy seals like that,

madmaxx · #68 (**permalink**) 12-22-2011, 09:28 PM

Wow, excellent feedback!!!!! Thanks for the info!!! Once you put some miles on it let us know how many miles per quart of oil.

68pony · #69 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 12:35 AM

The ones we fitted looked like this.

mreid · #70 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 06:40 AM

Chris, do you have a part number or size?

In a related point, I have a Ford Racing 347 with the Z heads in my 66 Mustang. I bought the engine in 2008. I pulled a valve cover yesterday and guess what, it has orange seals. However, they work fine with no smoking or excess oil consumption. Chris, I thought you had problems in all cylinders? If not, perhaps the problem is only in the cylinders with the missing tension clips?

Really glad to hear you got it sorted! Nice job!

blykins · #71 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 06:54 AM

mreid,

If you're planning on changing yours, I would suggest using the Viton rubber seals over the Teflon seals. I have seen the Teflon seals get hard or brittle and not seal as well over time. The Viton seals provide a much better seal.

Mike Huddart · #72 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 11:34 AM

Might be a bit of confusion here, and undue alarm, with all this orange business.
The seals that Ford sell in the FMS catalogue are the nitrile rubber ones with a flat retaining spring on the guide as yours but an external helical wound spring on the valve bit, just like the internal spring in a conventional seal.
They come in black for intake and orange for exhaust but if you get them on their assembled heads they all seem to be orange. They work OK.
What YOU seem to have are the latest hard plastic "Ultimate Duty " seals marketed by somebody called Valve Train Only ( VTO ) ! and sold by Howards Cams # 93315, intestingly both from Oshkosh WI...Hmmm.
They are colour coded for size and the ones for 11/32 valves ( yours ) are......Orange. They do not have a top circlip as the ones in your photo
Amongst the claims they make apart from the usual "space age" nonsense, is one that they are "self lubricating" quite why you would want something self lubricating when they are permanently covered in oil escapes me.
Also the "Design allows small amount of oil for guide lube " ! How much is "small " and does small get big when dealing with the massive vacuum from a 427W
Apparently they are installed with finger pressure only BUT they have to be glued / sealed onto the guide with an enclosed sachet of glue, if you think you had these hard plastic seals, were they glued in place ?
Interestingly, in spite of all the marvelous qualities they claim to have they sell for about half the price of the white Perfect Circle seals you have replaced them with. Very strange.

Mike

GBowman · #73 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 02:04 PM

Yikes...I have a BDR on order with the 427 Z351 Alum block/CNC heads-I need to call Frank at Backdraft because my motor is from the same vintage, completed in July so pretty close. uh-ohhhhhh

Cashburn · #74 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBowman

Yikes...I have a BDR on order with the 427 Z351 Alum block/CNC heads-I need to call Frank at Backdraft because my motor is from the same vintage, completed in July so pretty close. uh-ohhhhhh

That all aluminum Ford Racing 427 is a prototype engine they had there for awhile, so the timeframe may have no impact. Have them verify it's not doing any of this.

For the record we have installed about 14 of these engines in the last year. Of those 14 we have only seen this smoking on 1 engine that is currently back in our shop for service. We changed out the seals with a set Ford Racing provided and they did not solve the situation. However, the set we were supplied look nothing like the ones that worked for 68pony.

So we are looking for solutions on that 1 engine (purchased around the April time frame).

68pony · #75 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 03:42 PM

The white ones we put in are 11/32 the brand was pioneer, the orange ones were not glued as they came off easy and had little tension, all i can say is we know of three 427's here in sydney including mine that had this smoke issue all three had orange seals all three were replaced with the white ones pictured and all three stopped smoking after this was done, the orange ones might work fine on the same head for a 347 but a 427 is a different ball game, maybe they just were not fitted correctly i don't know but i'm a happy chappy now and went cruising yesterday and it was nice to see NO smoke wafting out from my rear view mirror

Luce · #76 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 03:47 PM

Perfect! So they're intended to leak. Why even install seals?

Well, I don't think it's worth the time and headache to try and deal with Ford. I guess I'll just drop the $32 for a new set.

But I will badmouth Ford any chance I get about this.

Gaz64 · #77 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

mreid,

If you're planning on changing yours, I would suggest using the Viton rubber seals over the Teflon seals. I have seen the Teflon seals get hard or brittle and not seal as well over time. The Viton seals provide a much better seal.

Another vote for viton.

I use viton in every engine now, will never use teflon again.
I've seen too many failures; broken, split etc.

68pony · #78 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce

Perfect! So they're intended to leak. Why even install seals?

Well, I don't think it's worth the time and headache to try and deal with Ford. I guess I'll just drop the $32 for a new set.

But I will badmouth Ford any chance I get about this.

Luce please tell ford racing about your issue, if you don't then they think everything is alright, they might also think i'm making this up, i didn't have the luxury of doing this myself and had to pay someone, and ford racing should be accountable, if there are more complaints they will take this issue more seriously, and i can get my money back for the repairs, if people just fix it and don't say anything how would ford racing know of any issues regarding the seals.
regards chris.

GBowman · #79 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 04:09 PM

Cashburn...I spoke with Frank, he said no issues with the motor in #1061-it has over 100 miles on it so I would expect if there was an issue they would have seen the symptoms by now. I will def put the hairy eyeball on it. Thx for the input.

Are you saying you installed 14 of the Alum block motors up there with 1 problem or 14 of the motors like 68Pony's? thx again

Cashburn · #80 (**permalink**) 12-23-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBowman

Cashburn...I spoke with Frank, he said no issues with the motor in #1061-it has over 100 miles on it so I would expect if there was an issue they would have seen the symptoms by now. I will def put the hairy eyeball on it. Thx for the input.

Are you saying you installed 14 of the Alum block motors up there with 1 problem or 14 of the motors like 68Pony's? thx again

We have not used the alum. versions..l they had some issues with supply and only recently revised the specs. Maybe this year...

Our customer did not notice the issue until 500 or so miles, however we believe it was just not as noticeable. We delivered with about 30 miles and had no sign.