small block?

[PoppyMod]

Hey Guys,
I don't want to come off as a smart arse, but, since when did a "427" become a "small block"?

[Bob In Ct]

Ever since the deck height was that of a 351 Windsor.

Small Block - DH = 8.2 inches, Medium Block (Windsor) - DH = 9.5 inches, Big Block (FE) - DH = 10.17

Bob

[PoppyMod]

Hi,
While that may be true, with the advent of stroker kits, it doesn't fit within the essence of what the small block was really about. Ask anyone, 289 vs 427, which is considered a small block? Typically, most of the guys I travel with, who all happen to be FORD guys, think of the traditional SBF as a 260, 289, 302, yes maybe the 352, but, not when we have the stroker kits that boost the CIs to 408 and beyond.
Again, when I open the SBF portal, and as one who wants to offer some modicum of my experience in design and build of "SBFs" for maximum performance, I don't to wade thru the mega blocks beyond the 351. But hey, that's me. I can easily drift on to another forum.
BTW, my 289/333 makes a comfy 392 RWHP @ 5900 with 401 RWTQ @ 4400, and was designed and assembled by me.
Happy Trails to those that care.

[tcrist]

Having a bit of a bad start to the new year Ken?

I do not know a whole lot about Fords but I do about Chevys. In a Chevy there is a complete differance between a SB and a BB and it has nothing to do with CI.

[WardL]

I would say in the old days when Ford needed an economical engine with 260 to 351 CI they would use their standard "smaller" engine block design. When Ford wanted more than 360 CI engine with more power, it was most economic/reliable to switch to a heavier duty block, AKA big block design. The added power required the extra strength of the thicker block, etc and the extra weight was more than made up for by the increase in power. As the strength of materials improved and the demand for less weight and more HP for performance, engineers came up with smaller blocks (like the Dart racing block) that could reliably withstand the forces required of 450 CI in a lighter better designed block. The Dart racking block may be referred to a small block, it is much different in terms of strength and reliability. If you take a standard SBF and stroke it to 400 CI, you are taking advantage of the extra capacity Ford wanted in their reliable SB engine. Ford didn't do it, but many Cobra owners have done it and are very happy with the results. It is the same technology advancements we see in every facet of progress. That's my opinion and I'm biased.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by PoppyMod

Hi, While that may be true, with the advent of stroker kits, it doesn't fit within the essence of what the small block was really about. Ask anyone, 289 vs 427, which is considered a small block? Typically, most of the guys I travel with, who all happen to be FORD guys, think of the traditional SBF as a 260, 289, 302, yes maybe the 352....

A small block is a small block. The physical size of the block doesn't change, it's just a combination of "gut size" change.

By your own definition, the guys that you travel with would consider your 333 out of the "typical" range. And I'm sure that they would consider my 445 and 460 cubic inch Windsors out of the range as well.....

Originally Posted by PoppyMod

BTW, my 289/333 makes a comfy 392 RWHP @ 5900 with 401 RWTQ @ 4400, and was designed and assembled by me.

Congratulations.

[marcocsx3121]

The 352 is, in fact, a true "big block" and not a version of the 221/260/289/302 engines.

[Bob In Ct]

The 352 is an FE big block engine (DH=10.17) just like the 390, 406, 427, 428. The 351 windsor (same bore and stroke as the 352) is a medium block (DH=9.5). The 221, 260, 289 and 302 are small blocks (DH=8.2)

It's all about the deck height.

Bob

[289fia_cobra]

And just to confuse everyone, a 4.6 and the latest 'Coyote' 5.0 has an exterior dimension that would do a big-block lover proud until they realize their internal cubic inch chambers are that of a small block. Then you get kind of deflated.

[olddog]

Well I will point out that the FE (commonly called a big block) started life as a 332 cid, nearly a decade before the small block Ford was designed. The FE was not considered a big block it was just the only engine made for a while. So for those who are hung up on cid, is the 331 FE a small block?

Now the SB Ford was introduced with 221 cid. Then was upped to 260 cid, followed by the 289, and finally the 302. So if you are such a purest on displacement, why are you running 333 cid instead of the 221 that started the whole SB movement? Your 333 cid engine has more cubic inches than the original FE !!! So by your reasoning you have a BB.

[RET_COP]

Interesting= so I have a MBF 359 [+.040] I'm going with this on my entry sheets this summer. This will cause some head scratching.
Lou

[olddog]

Ok I seem to be in a $hit stirring mood - bored maybe.

289/302 8.206 deck height & 4.380 bore spacing
351C 9.213 deck height & 4.380 bore spacing
351W 9.480 deck height & 4.380 bore spacing
427/428 FE 10.17 deck height & 4.630 bore spacing
429/460 10.30 deck height & 4.900 bore spacing
400M 10.302 deck height & 4.380 bore spacing

So where should the SB / BB line be drawn?
Or do we need to look at the bore spacing?

[rodneym]

You mean Small Block guys have this discussion all by themselves?

[PoppyMod]

Wow! Got quite a stir going on, it seems. I guess the whole SB/BB definition needed an airing out. Thanks to all who chimed in their comments. "Olddog" good post!
Happy Motoring guys!

[tcrist]

Well I dont know about anyone else but I at least learned something from this post. Thanks Ken for bringing it up.

[Dumpling]

you all might want to look at the table in the Wikipedia article on the FE engine.

[Barry_R]

Originally Posted by PoppyMod

Hey Guys,
I don't want to come off as a smart arse, but, since when did a "427" become a "small block"?

The term "427" has a certain nostalgia magic to it. It's because the Ford (and Chevy) 427 engines were essentially the pinnacle of high performance in the 60's. The stuff dreams and memories were made of.

These days the guys that favor small blocks due to budget or perceived weight constraints like to justify the badges on the side of the car by targeting the 427 cubic inch displacement. There is a bit of marketing magic in there...

That oughta get a bunch of small block guys upset with me (as I duck under the table....beer in hand )

[AL427SBF]

It's because the Ford (and Chevy) 427 engines were essentially the pinnacle of high performance in the 60's. The stuff dreams and memories were made of.

Pinnacle: The highest level or degree attainable; the highest stage of development.

IMHO there is really one "pinnacle of high performance in the 60's", that would be the 427 SOHC. The leaky FE just doesn't measure up to the SOHC

[vector1]

this is the way i look at it:

289=early mustang
302=bigger mustang
351c=attempt at a race motor
351w=mule later to become bigger mule
352=truck
360=truck
390=truck
391=bigger truck
400=my dad's station wagon
427=race engine
428=my neighbor's t-bird
429=bad mustang
460=bigger t-bird
500=caddy
fe=turd
lol

[AL427SBF]

oh dear! lmao