Refresh on a 302: Any Advice or build secrets?

[Dwight]

it's not that hard to pull the motor. Maybe 2 hours. I have my engine lift modified to pull motors from the front of a Cobra. That makes it very easy. You need an engine leveler also.

It's so easy to work on the motor and keep everything clean with the motor out of the car.

Dwight

[69boss429]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

And yeah, you're quite right. One thing that I know will drive me nutz is a nice warm California Spring afternoon, and my Cobra sits, partially dismantled, in my garage and the only sunshine I get is when I stick my hand out from underneath the Cobra for a wrench...

Well, lots to think about.

By the way, the re-ring trick I mostly hear from ex-racers. It was brought up to me by a racer that used to drive GT-40's "back in the day".

By the way, here's a tech question: When resetting a distributor, how do you get the distributor to line up with the top of the oil pump shaft. I tried for quite a while on my engine, and ended up jacking the Cobra up in some weird way to get the oil pump shaft to center, then I could set the distributor.

There has GOT to be a better way!

Dd

The end of the oil pump driveshaft is pointed and the dist shaft hole is chamfered to allow the two to go together.
I gently press down on the dist while hitting a remote starter button to get the dist in .
Always works.

[Wbulk]

If your compression is good and you are not burning oil why mess with pulling the pistons and doing the re-ring job. It does take some skill to do a good hone job, and you can mess it up so the new rings will not seal. If you have to fix the oil pan leak, go ahead and check the bearings while you are there. If you just want to pull the pistons send me a PM and I can run you through the process of honing cylinders.

Honestly, if you have never done this before Power House tools has a decent video on building a small block chevy that is pretty good. I would get that for starters to understand the basics.

Wayne

[Dangerous Doug]

I actually installed the engine myself, so taking it out isn't much of a problem. Have an engine leveler, as well as a lift plate from Tim (above). Knowing me, though, with it out I'd talk myself into completely tearing it down...

This whole train of thought came about in that I was under my Cobra and I found a cracked motor mount will I was under there. I have to lift the engine to replace that. While I am lifting it, pull it out. Before too long I was changing the heads and replacing the pistons and...and.. and...

You all know how this happens.

Anyhow, back to tech talk:

When installing my distributor, the top of the oil pump shaft is flat, and the shape hexagonal. The shaft would rest against the side of the hole, without any room for the shaft of the distributor to slip in, even when jiggled around. I messed with it f-o-r-e-v-e-r, then jacked my Cobra up in the rear right until the oil pump shaft dangled precariously in the center, and dropped in my distributor. Bingo.

But, see? Now I need to buy a new oil pump shaft to replace the one that is so difficult to center. So, I might as well get an HV oil pump and add that remote oil filter! And while I do that...

Thanks for the tip on Power House tools video. I looked up "Ford 302 ring job" and found some pretty hokey videos that didn't inspire confidence. I'll check out Power House.

DD

[Gaz64]

Doug,

If you are thinking about a HV oil pump, replace the oil pump driveshaft with a HIGH QUALITY shaft with a pointed end.

A standard or low quality shaft will twist up like a pretzel.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

Jerry & David: That's what I was looking for in terms of information.
Some things are not, at least to me: How DO you get an oil pan gasket to seal the first time? You tested the piston clearance with puddy, so you know it clears, but how thick should the puddy to compensate for hot/cold metal fluctuations in the metal?
DD

o-k, some odd and end tips:when removing pistons,especially your first time,wipe the top of each piston clean and mark the top with a marks-a-lot,put the number of the piston on it and an arrow pointing to the front of the engine...after you remove the piston,then put the rod cap back on the rod as you took it off and scribe the rod and the cap on the same side with the rod/piston #...you can also mark the side of the rod with an arrow pointing to the front of the engine,now clean up the top of the piston,99% of pistons already have an arrow or notch on them pointing to the front of the engine!!!!
oil pan sealing:clean the bottom of the block, I put small dabs of RTV on the bottom of the block between the bolt holes,very small dabs, then smear them smooth with your finger, then glue the pan gasket to the block, let it set,so the gasket is held in place, when your ready to instlall the pan,do the same on the pan gasket and add a nice dab of RTV on the 4 corners of the gasket/front/rear main seal,now put the pan on,start all bolts,then begin snugging them up,I like to start from the middle going outwards to each end.snug them up and then continue to go over each bolt in sequence,turning it about 1/4 turn.as your tighterning the bolts the cork gasket will have some"give" to it and I usually do this 3 times, you don't want to overtighten the bolts where the gasket squishes out, that's too tight....if done right, you'll see a little RTV squish out, that's o-k,let it dry completely and then with a razor blade trim off the excees RTV for looks....
if your talking about testing piston to valve clearance,to do it correctly, you'll need 2 solid lifters,Summit/Jegs sells them in pairs for this...I put enough putty to fill the valve relief on the piston and have it sticking above the flat part of the piston top slightly,now take a drop or two of engine oil and smear on the top of the putty and the bottom of the valves,this will keep the putty from sticking on the valves, bolt down your cylinder head to the required torque #s.put in your push rods and tighten the rocker arms to zero lash,now rotate your engine over by hand twice,remove heads and see what kind of marks are in the putty..some do this without a head gasket,I have an old pair of head gaskets hanging on a nail just for this use,both ways will work,I prefer using a used head gasket as it has already been compressed and will give an accurate reading...
One could literally wirte a book, many have, the HP series of books by Tom Monroe is excellent and it will give you plenty of technical info such as torque specs/firing orders and other things as well as very good photos....get one of these books....




David

[Dangerous Doug]

David, great explanation. I would have definitely pulled the head off and looked for the putty on the piston only to find it on the valves.

Don't want to impose on your help with more questions, but what is "zero lash" insofar as rocker arms are concerned?

Yeah, I'm a novice.
DD

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

David, great explanation. I would have definitely pulled the head off and looked for the putty on the piston only to find it on the valves.
Don't want to impose on your help with more questions, but what is "zero lash" insofar as rocker arms are concerned?
Yeah, I'm a novice.
DD

We were all novices and asking the same questions at some point in time,only way to learn.oil on putty trick was learned the hard way, one learns these little "tricks" when one gets tired of doing something 3 times to get it right!!!!!!!
When using solid lifters to check piston to valve clerance, you want "zero lash" to get an accurate reading.....to get zero lash, you want the lifter to be on the base of the camshaft, not on the lobe,with the intake off, you can actually see this as you rotate the engine by hand, now put the rocker arm on and tighten the adjusting nut down until the rocker arm tip is just barely touching the valve tip, you can wiggle the rocker arm with one hand as you are tightening the rocker adjusting nut and feel when it is snug on the valve tip..by doing this, you have taken all the "slack" out of everything and get a true/accurate reading....One this is all done and you remove the head, you should see some marks in the putty where the valve touched it as it opened, cut the putty with a razor blade as in my above photo and you wil see how much clearance you will have between the valve and piston....as long as you have about .125 or more, your fine.....with stock type flat top pistons and anything but a very aggresive camshaft, you should be fine......

David

[Dangerous Doug]

Perfect. I had heard of the putty method, but when the valve presses into the putty I couldn't think of how you could measre the remaining putty. The obvious sign of trouble is seeing a valve imprint that revealed piston metal, but the razor blade trick can get you a clear measurement. The zero lash makes sense as well.

When installing heads do you adjust the rockers to zero lash? I know it's important to measure the spring compression by measureing the clearance between the spring bands, but what do you look for in terms of spacing?

Thanks again, David. This is good stuff.
DD

[Wbulk]

Zero lash is with the lifter on the base circle of the cam or with the piston on TDC on the compression stroke, the rocker arm is adjusted so there is no play between the push rod and the rocker arm. This is determined by moving the push rod up and down while tightening the rocker until just at the point the clearance is removed. With solid lifters when you get close you can spin the lifter with your thumb and index finger while tightening, and you can feel the exact point of zero clearance (zero lash). Another method I prefer for adjusting valves is the exhaust opening intake closing method. Comp Cams has this on their website, but basically its when the exhaust valve starts to open you adjust the intake valve and when the intake valve is closing you adjust the exhaust valve on the same cylinder. With this method you don't have to watch timing marks or where the rotor on the dist. is pointing.

Regarding HV oil pumps on the 302, there are risks of breaking that oil pump rod. I don't use the HV pump on the 302, but if you do, like Gary said, make sure to use a HD type rod. That HV pump puts a lot of pressure on that small rod. If that rod breaks all kinds of bad things happen.

[blykins]

With all due respect, and I'm just trying to be helpful.....

If you've never done any engine work before, I would suggest not doing it the hardest way possible...

Pull the engine, put it on a stand, disassemble everything, MEASURE, and see what you have, what you need, what you're going to do.

Doing all of this while in the car will pretty much insure that you'll have to do it again just a little bit down the road.

Not sure why Jerry suggested that you do it that way, but Jerry is an engine builder with probably 30-40 years experience....not someone doing this for the first time.

Building an engine is really something that's very methodical and detail oriented. Just randomly asking, "How do I build an engine", then getting answers about pump drives and valve lash isn't particularly the best scenario.

Pull the thing down, start from the foundation, and learn to do everything the proper way. Don't build your first engine like a shadetree mechanic.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Doug;

Sent you a PM.......

David

[Dwight]

I use Play Dough & WD40. Easier to find at the store.

I've used a HV/HP one time. Pressure was 90-100. I was showing out for my brother and at about 5000 rpms in third I blew the o-ring out of the oil filter. I still have that oil pump on the shelf. Then I ran a HV for a couple of motors. Last time my buddy, the Ford mechanic talked me into running a standard pump. He bought me a book on how to build race motors and show me where the author explained why you want to use a standard pump. So I bought a standard pump and installed it. I have the same pressure as I did with the HV. And for street that is good enough.

Now a street motor is different than a race motor. But some of the things they do to race motor can be used on a street motor but not all. NOT ALL.


With that being said;

Books I have

How To Build Small-Block Ford Racing Engines by Tom Monroe ISBN 978-1-55788-536-4
The Step-By-Step Guide To Engine Blueprinting By Rick Voegelin ISBN 1-884089-26-7
Ford Performance Includes All Modern Ford Pushrod Performance Engines by Pat Ganahl ISBN 1-884089-27-5

Reading about building a motor is all most as much fun as building one. Give you something to do at night when the TV has a bunch of boring shows.

I'm not an engine build but I have fun trying. When I build a motor I have my Ford mechanic buddy stand over my shoulder and watch. Every part is in and out several times before you get to torque it down for the last time. Some times a new part does not fit correctly and you have to buy another one.
All the part have to work together, heads, cam, rockers, intake, exhaust headers, sidepipes, etc. You need to decide if you want a low rpm torque motor for the street or a 7,000 rpm motor.

I would not build a motor to sale to someone else but I had good luck with mine. My small block is putting down 402 to the rear wheels of my Cobra.

It took 6 or 8 years of changing parts on the motor every winter to get there. The last time I bought the heads and cam from Keith Craft after I gave him a list of all the other parts I was going to use.
My buddy gave me a block and I used it thinking I would move all the other parts off the old motor. Did not work that way. I now have two motors, one in the Cobra and the other scattered all over the storage room.

Have fun

Dwight

[frdfver]

A lot of good advice. After building and (refreshing) many engines over the years, it is always harder to do an engine in the car than on a stand. My vote would be to fix the mount and the leak and drive the car, Summer is almost here. Buy another block-engine and build your dream engine, when done put it in, You can then sell the engine you have now to recoup some costs. Unless its blowing oil or running bad, 35,000 if built right should'nt be hurt.

Paul T

[Tom Cimino]

A couple more books:

How to Build BIG-INCH Ford Small blocks by George Reid (SA Design, Cat # SA85)

Ford Windsor Small Block Performance by Isaac Martin (HP Books ISBN 1-55788-323-8)

[Dangerous Doug]

blykins: I know you're trying to be helpful, but you're being insulting. Shade-tree mechanic? Indeed. Please stop.

Thanks for the tips, guys. I have several of the books mentioned and have been reading them for quite a while. I always notice little things get missed in the common lingo: I've seen "zero lash" several times in print and hadn't had a chance to discuss it with anyone. Looking it up on Wikipedia didn't seem like a good idea, so I asked here.

I have a lot of options in terms of how I approach this. Admittedly, I have a few things I need to check out before I do anything, but have been quite busy and haven't even had a chance to climb back under my Cobra. If everything checks out, I won't mess with it and I may be sporting quad Webers as the the days get warmer and longer.

That being said: So, let's say I don't change the oil pump to an HV. I thought if I had a remote oil filter I would need to use an HV pump. Not so? Also, if I change out the pump shaft to one that won't have me dreading having to pull my distributor out, is there any issue (removal rotation?) that will cause the distributor rotor to become misaligned? When I put my "Armando" oil pan on, I had the engine on a stand to put on the new pickup, and didn't mess with the pump or shaft. Anything I need to be aware of if I replace the oil pump shaft?

DD

PS For those of you that think I'm asking stupid questions: I am. But if you follow this tread I bet you'll learn something from your Cobra-brethren.

[ratsnst1]

[quote=Dangerous Doug;1181016]Okay, so I want to change the heads on my 302, as well as resealing the oil pan. I'm figuring for heads either AFR 185's or AFR 165's, depending upon the pistons (and clearance) I find when I pop the heads off. I have World Windsor Jr. right now. While I have the pan off and the heads off, I plan to pull the pistons and hone the cylinders and put new rings and rod bearings on. I am doing all this with the engine still installed.

However, I have never rebuilt or refreshed an engine before, though I've done quite a bit of auto mechanical work, and built my ERA 289 FIA myself.

The process I'm planning involves removing the heads and oil pan, pulling each piston out one at a time, honing with a bottle brush hone tool, installing new rings and rod bearings, testing the clearance with the first piston, and making my way from cylinder #1 to #8.

I've never done this before, and I have the requisite books on rebuilding Ford small blocks. However, I'm sure there is a ton of things I should do to do it correctly.

Thus, my query: I would like to hear everyone's advice on this project. Note that this engine was recently rebuilt (probably less than 35k on it and has strong oil pressure), and I want to limit the project to rings, heads, manifold (Performer RPM Airgap), rockers (I'm thinking 1.7's to give my mild cam a "goose"), and I'll change the water pump and the oil pump as well. I love to tinker with stuff, so don't tell me to buy a crate engine. I want to know what's inside what's under my hood.

So, any tricks of the trade? I have done that on a big rig 18 years ago, it was a cummings 350 diesel, in a kenworth dump truck.Its called an in frame rebuild.

DD[/QUOTE

[ratsnst1]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Doug--I have been reluctant to reply on this as I know that I will draw a lot of flack ---

But after 50+ YEARS of working on everything from farm tractors up to and including nitro fueled dragsters, funny cars, pro stocks and Indy cars, go karts (WKA national & world championships) dirt circle track racers, etc----

With the availability of the flex hones (bottle brush) and brake clean (no more gasolene soaked rags)---You can and I have done hundreds of times( without any problem that stemmed directly from ) done what you are asking about---

A few tips---have the crank turned to where the stuff won't drip on the throw and maybe cover up with towel---Dip the flexhone in some type of solventy mix(honing oil is good but maybe not available), mineral spirits works good, can be washed off with water--make a few passes up and down but concentrate at the top (ring travel region), when you have a pattern(clean looking but don't go until it is glazed)--spray down walls to wash away stuff with liberal amounts of brake clean---move to next hole---

After you have the area rinsed pretty clean, and wiped off around top and bottom areas of cylinder--before you install pistons, you need to use clean lint freee paper towels folded with some fresh oil on them to wipe the cylinder walls until towel stays clean( you will notice what I mean as you do this)

Of course you will also need a brush hone with the necessary grit to get the surface finish you need--- check and adjust if necessary the ring gap--

I would suggest doing a leak down check prior to disassembly of your engine and after its put back together--

If while doing this you find its not going smooth or you aren't happy with your work you can then remove the engine and do as others suggest--
Since you are reringing all 8 , don't put it back together until you are done cleaning all 8 holes--

And good luck---you got 35 minutes before next round-----


don't mix up the rod caps---

theres alot of room in there, I used small rubber hoses on my connecting rod bolts when installing my pistons, so not to scar the cylinder walls, its a good tip and old timer taught me.

[blykins]

Cool.....good luck.

[vector1]

i think you can do it, gather all the information you can and be prepared to make mistakes, cause there will be some. everytime i get in one of these projects i remind myself about a wall a million chinese people built.

you could buy a running 5.0 and do the same thing outside of the car.... i also have a bare 302 block you could have for practice if you lived closer.

couple good books:

how to build max performance ford v'8s on a budget
ford windsor small-block performance
official factory guide to building ford short-track power

now i see you are in ca, you can have all these books to your door for $25

just another shade tree mechanic