Refresh on a 302: Any Advice or build secrets?

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

Incidentally, in the 400hp 302 article, in the fourth paragraph they state that all they did (other than the AFR 165's and the 1.7 rockers) was a "a quick bottle brush hone to clean up the cylinder walls and a set of fresh rings and bearings".

Perhaps I'm not the laughable lunatic all of you seemed to think I am.

DD

I guess I'll start building my engines that way....that should save me a ton of money! Trust me Doug, I write for quite a few magazines and they don't have the budget to throw copious amounts of money at machine work and parts. As a matter of fact, if they didn't get a lot of parts donated to them by the manufacturers, or the articles weren't written about a certain build that an outside builder was doing, they probably wouldn't get very far.

As for the cylinder heads, increased displacement is the key factor there. Those 185 heads are excellent choices for 347's, 351's, some 408's, etc. I've found that customers want to go overboard on heads, carbs, and cams. Bigger is not always better...

[Jerry Clayton]

Brent---there is a big differance in the way we build engines here in the shop and how we work on them at the races---
There is no way that I would bottle brush hone a cylinder here, but the bottle brush hone for use in the pits would be a lot better than the old drill driven Sunnen or Lisle hones that we used to use account of the bottle brush will not destroy the shape of the cylinder that is not supported with dek plates, etc!!

Doug is discussing a medium effort upgrading at his home garage( kinda like the pits) and I believe that (with the milage he has, a cylinder wall ridge could be a disqualifying problem),and as he goes along, he must be aware to keep in mind that at any turn of the wrench, it might develope into a remove the engine from the car scene----Changing cylinder heads or removing the oil pan to check bearings , oil pump change, etc are pretty minor to the complete machining of a complete new build with boring/honing cyl, decking, align hone---

[olddog]

I have a book on different Windsor configurations ran on a dyno. I found a 302 with 165 and another with 185 heads. The 165 heads had a 212/216 cam and the 185 had a 224/228 duration cam with a bit more lift. As I said, it is hard to find a same cam like for like comparison, but I do not think the 224/228 is too much cam. That said, the 165 heads made more torque everywhere but the very peak >6000 rpm. Not a big difference, ~15 lb-ft down low. They had different intakes too, and that could have made the same difference.

Also the flow numbers, in that book showed better exhaust flow on the 165s and better intake flow on the 185s. The 165s a tad bit more compression.

As Brent suggested, if the plan is to stay 302-306 forever then go with the 165s. If you do plan to stroke it bigger later. go with the 185s, as you won't loose too much with the 302.

[Dangerous Doug]

On second look at the AFR comparison article, the 185's are suggested for engines with a bit more cam AND an increase in displacement. I wrote "or".

DD

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Brent---there is a big differance in the way we build engines here in the shop and how we work on them at the races---
There is no way that I would bottle brush hone a cylinder here, but the bottle brush hone for use in the pits would be a lot better than the old drill driven Sunnen or Lisle hones that we used to use account of the bottle brush will not destroy the shape of the cylinder that is not supported with dek plates, etc!!

Doug is discussing a medium effort upgrading at his home garage( kinda like the pits) and I believe that (with the milage he has, a cylinder wall ridge could be a disqualifying problem),and as he goes along, he must be aware to keep in mind that at any turn of the wrench, it might develope into a remove the engine from the car scene----Changing cylinder heads or removing the oil pan to check bearings , oil pump change, etc are pretty minor to the complete machining of a complete new build with boring/honing cyl, decking, align hone---

Jerry, much agreed.

But for a first time effort, I just want him to do it right the first time so he doesn't have to do it again. If the only thing that's going to keep him from taking it to a machinist and having it done right is an extra hour of time and $100-125, then I would rather see him do it that way.

What if the cylinders aren't straight now and he doesn't have a bore gauge to check it? What if they're worn so badly or tapered so badly that it can be adding to his oil consumption issues? If he just throws a ball hone in there, he's only taking the glaze off the current bore condition. He's not repairing any issues. Unless he takes it in, or buys a mic and a bore mic to start checking cylinders, he'll have no way of knowing. See what I mean?

I hate to see him get the thing all the way together (and risk contaminating the oil with leftover debris from honing as well) and have to go back and do it again later.

[vector1]

i just sold a good set of gt40 aluminum heads off a 351 crate engine that would make a good candidate for your 302. this type head is cheaper and more than enough for the 302.

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

On second look at the AFR comparison article, the 185's are suggested for engines with a bit more cam AND an increase in displacement. I wrote "or".

DD

[chomama1]

This thread is very interesting, I just bought a fairly plain-jane FFR and I want to put AFR heads on it. Engine is o/w fine, runs great, no smoke or noise. Also, I want to get the stock Ford FI gizmo off the engine, want to do either Webers or Inglese stack FI (computer controlled). That's it. That's all I want to do. I lean toward the Inglese system, I think tuning Webers could be a nightmare.

[Dangerous Doug]

chomama1: Sounds like a fun project. 302 as well? I'm thinking of 44 IDF Webers, but I go back and forth between that, which would require a lot of tuning, and a Performer RPM with a Holley double-pumper. However, most guys with Webers tell me they get them set up (usually, with some difficulty), but once you get them tuned, you rarely have to mess with them.

But, it sounds like you "get it", meaning you have an engine that is sound but you'd like to fit some upgrades, for a little more power and a lot more fun.

You planning on doing yours yourself?

On the whole bottlebrush hone take the engine out argument: I think it really comes down to this: What's the worst that can happen? Whatever that might be some learning took place and somebody cut their teeth. How do you learn anything? I love books, but you really need to roll up your sleeves (book in one hand) to apply book-learning to gain working knowledge.

DD

[Jerry Clayton]

I think I'm going to write a cell phone APP for overhaul----

[PoppyMod]

Hi,
I'm the type that designs, then builds based on a goal. So, what is your goal?
I'm running a 46 year old 289 block that makes 392-400 RWHP at 6100 RPMs. It's a street warrior, thus makes bias toward torque not HP. My RWTQ is 400 @ 4200 RPM.
BTW, I'm running dual DCOE 40mm Webers, custom cam, Eddy RPM, 170 TWs, and TRI-Ys. The key is in the details.
Where do you want to be?

[PoppyMod]

Originally Posted by blykins

I guess I'll start building my engines that way....that should save me a ton of money! Trust me Doug, I write for quite a few magazines and they don't have the budget to throw copious amounts of money at machine work and parts. As a matter of fact, if they didn't get a lot of parts donated to them by the manufacturers, or the articles weren't written about a certain build that an outside builder was doing, they probably wouldn't get very far.

As for the cylinder heads, increased displacement is the key factor there. Those 185 heads are excellent choices for 347's, 351's, some 408's, etc. I've found that customers want to go overboard on heads, carbs, and cams. Bigger is not always better...

Hi,
Very, very true regarding the heads! Once you decide what you expect from your build, the heads will be the next most important decision. Because they become the introduction of your engines breathing capabilities. If this is a street warrior, build for torque. Don't get caught up in the hype that bigger is better. On the street bigger is better, as it applies to torque.
Just my 2 cents.

[Dangerous Doug]

I just realized that my block is 4 years younger than me...

Just started getting into the analysis portion of my changes. Checked the vacuum and took out the (black sooty) plugs. Next is the compression test, but I'm out of time for the weekend. I did find and fix an oil leak: on the oil pressure gauge line next to the block. I tightened my oil pan bolts just in case I'm missing something there.

More later. Stay tuned.
DD

[Dangerous Doug]

Well, I finally found some time to do the dry/wet compression test and the results indicate that my cylinders are a bit worn. So, I've fixed the oil leaks and after I trim my headers (to bring my sidepipes up a tad in the front) I'll button it back up and it should be fine to drive through Spring and Summer.

I started looking into a block and stroker kit (331) and found that I could get a Keith Craft assembled short block for about what I would pay for the block and stroker kit. I'd start my build this Spring and slowly tinker with it over the rest of Spring and then Summer for a Fall/Winter install.

Eh, I was hoping I could get away with a quick ring refresh on my existing engine---I really do like it---but the original plan was to replace it after two years (I got three years out of it, all for $1500...).

Time to build the engine that I had originally intended to build for my FIA. 331, AFR 185's, Performer RPM air-gap, Holley double-pumper...

And, off we go!
DD

[Jerry Clayton]

Damn--We are leaving to go to Denver for asome friends 50 wedding anniversity and was going to continue to LAX where my old top fueler is being restored then was planning a trip up to your area--Wife's step brother lives in Scott's Valley --so I'll just leave my hone at home----------

[dallas_]

Originally Posted by PoppyMod

I'm running dual DCOE 40mm Webers,

Don't see that setup every day. That's pretty cool.

[Dangerous Doug]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Damn--We are leaving to go to Denver for asome friends 50 wedding anniversity and was going to continue to LAX where my old top fueler is being restored then was planning a trip up to your area--Wife's step brother lives in Scott's Valley --so I'll just leave my hone at home----------

Well, depending on your timing....After I build up and install a 331 I'll take the 302 out and rebuild the whole thing for fun!

Give me a call if you get in the area. There's a few of us Cobra nuts around the Santa Cruz area.

DD

[GLS-BDR226]

I hate to get this old thread started again but I am thinking about replacing my FMS GT 40 X heads ( with FMS 1.6 alum rocker) with AFR 165s on a mild 302 with an Air Gap manifold, QF 650 double pumper (built by Brent which really woke it up), MSD, either a E303 or B303 (not sure what) cam and a stock bottom end. It pulled about 280 RWHP a couple of years ago with a crappy street avenger.

I don't want to do any mods so I want to stick with the 165 and not go bigger with 185s or TF 170s since I am concerned about PTV clearance. My questions are:

What 165s should I go with? The 1399s, 1402 or the pedestal mount 1472? I understand that if I go with the stud mounts I would need new rockers and hardened pushrods. With the 1472s I could reuse my old rockers and pushrods?

The engine has about 8200 miles and runs good. Just would like a little more kick. Who knows, if this doesn't work maybe I'll just get Brent to build a new engine.

Thanks.

[blykins]

If you don't have any plans for a larger engine, the 165's are ok. If you do go with those, I would go with the stud mount, so you could at least reuse rocker arms and associated parts later down the road.

[GLS-BDR226]

Thanks Brent. If I go with a larger engine I'll probably get a complete engine like your 347. That looks like a great deal! I just hate to dump a perfectly good engine. At least while it's running good or until I blow it up. Good thing my wife doesn't check this forum.

I read an old Car Craft article that got almost 400 HP out of a stock 302 by adding 165s. I'll see if I can get close. I'll probably try the 165s with the stud mounts since the pedestals can't be adjusted. I mainly don't want to put more $ into the bottom end by doing mods to get new heads to fit. I would rather just spend it on a new motor later even though I don't mind spending a little on new heads now. If that makes any sense. Plus I don't have a good shop to swap the motors. Been looking for a while. Changing heads is no problem.

[Dangerous Doug]

I think that article is on the AFR web site. I believe they upped the rocker ratio from 1.6 to 1.7 as well.

DD