oil pressure LOST, and then 24 hours later BACK

[289miller]

Just another thought Pete. If you find a lot of flakes in the pan they could have been sucked up to the oil suction pickup screen. They could block flow and drop to the bottom of the pan when motor is not running restoring oil pressure when started again. Simplistic I know, the answer is inside that pan and by the way scrap the oil cooler. Competent engine builders would never try to save a few bucks just to see a new motor trashed. And just consider the small additional cost of racing oil as insurance. I once thought that high end name brand synthetics were the way to go but the EPA has forced the petroleum industry to remove most of the anti wear additives in the last few years. Just some ideas to ponder.

[CHANMADD]

10w30 Imho is to much like water. I never use such a thin oil. 20w 50 is what I like, also the Rotella.

[Pete Munroe]

Guys,

Thanks for the series of great ideas and insights...I am operating on a few assumptions, some of which could actually be...a little weak. OK...

1. find bearing debris in the oil-filter and you tear it down the engine to clean out the passages...period.

2. oil filters have a bypass for cold high/pressure, so garbage can go past them to the oil passages

3. oil coolers made with multiple layers can be assumed to be contaminated and reuse them at your own risk.

4. ignoring repeated intermittent low oil pressure in a road-race application, you will eventually ruin something. there are other ways to ruin stuff but you can count on this one.

5. exceptions exist to ALL the above, and others...just assume the risk that come along with that and don't whine...

I may have jumped to conclusions to pull the engine, and THEN the pan. May still pull the pan before pulling the engine , but if there is junk in the filter I can get away with replacing a few bearings?

Hate working on my back. Iff there is bearing damage it means pulling it anyway ? I am forever the pessimist.

If it gets torn down I will do as good a post-mortem as I can. Any event can't pull the engine for several weeks. Curiosity is killing us...(me...!).

Along the line of dropping oil pressure due to pan problems, I am thinking about how to replace the crank scrapper I removed and still retain the lower end support. Wondering about something flexible that would bolt to the support and conform to the pan.

Thanks, Pete

[Jerry Clayton]

Pete---filters don't bypass because of high pressure--they bypass because of differential pressure( if the filter is blocked, it will bypass) were there any chips on the inside folds of the filter___NO---

If you pull the engine, put it on a stand, turn it upside down all so you don't have to work on your back---you will have then dumped any debreis still in the pan up into the engine---

No matter what you do work on the bottom of this until it is absolutely down to a complete overhaul---

If your oil system filters the oil before the cooler, you won't have any contamination except in the lines from the engine to the filter( remote?)

I would suggest getting rid of your main support in favor of the aviaid scraper/windage tray--you can do some straps on the mains probably

[ERA Chas]

Pete, was going to suggest when you have it open, take snaps of the bearing girdle and pan / scraper unit and post them. Jerry, Barry and Brent will have ideas and advice for you.

[madmaxx]

higly unlikely your filter bypassed and if it did it is a clean oil bypass, meaning the oil does not bypass across the dirty filter media. As stated before it is differential pressure not oil pressure across the filter, at 212F and 12 gpm you probably had less than 2 psig differential across your filter where most bypass valves are set at 9-11psig. If you are using a ford racing hl-1hp bypass valve is set at 20 psig which I would not recommend.

[madmaxx]

If you want ultimate protection next time from ferrous materials buy a filter mag, it attaches to you oil filter. The magnet on the bottom of you pan does nothing, the particles are too small and your magnet to weak to attact. The filter mags are incredible strong google their name, I use them on my cars and they work.

[RICK LAKE]

Pete Monroe The only check I would do before pulling the motor is checking the crankshaft end play. It should be under.010". Anything more, you are pulling the motor. I would also check the length of the trans mission input shaft and the bellhousing depth. GM input shafts are some times a little long for ford motors with Lakewood bell housings.
Auto mags on oil filters are good but don't work on copper or bronze partials.
Pull the motor and take your time about pulling motor apart. Like to see what distributor gear and camshaft look like. Check endplay on camshaft before removal. Will get spec for this. I beleive that it is .005" without distributor in block. Anything before the oil filter is junk. You will never get all the small partials out of the SS lines. I don't see how scrappers or gidles could have caused this failure. once you locate the damage area we will have a better idea of the failure. Either way a replacement of all the bearings, a good cleaning of all the oil passages are needed. New bolts in the rods, bearings and rings. Good look at the camshaft and lifters, and grooves and replace all. As far as the accusump, I mounted mine under the car on the r/s outter frame rail. It has electric soleniod to open and close. But small sign on dash about filling it before turning off motor. Something new about accusump, they now have a varying valve to control refills and not hurt the motor for oil. shields will be needed to protect the front and side of the tank from road debrie. MInes going on 7 years and still works great. 3/16" aluminum shields work great and protect. I am thinking the gear on the distributor is gone. Alot of cleaning wuill be needed. When done, there is on most blocks an oil gallery around the distributor/ camshaft area for oiling instead of splash setup. Need a .010-.15" hole to spary oil at this location. Good luck with repairs.Rick L.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

After machining on a block or as in this case,I would take out the oil galley plugs and put the block in the back of your truck and go to the car wash with it.......I wash everything with the high pressure hot water, especially the oil galleys to get any debris from the machining out or as in this case any debris that could have been floating around the block.....then when I get home, I blow dry it with compressed air to get all the moisture out and spray it with WD 40 or something similar to prevent rust till I put it back together....

David

[Jerry Clayton]

soooooo----why not take a look to see what happened?????? dist /cam gear, then oil pan, check bearings, oil pump etc----if you can identify the damage?cause, there is no reason to pull the whole engine----trust the oil filter to having done its job, clean up oil system up to the filter, reassemble and go run it---Next winter take it apart for overhaul.

[Pete Munroe]

Jerry, et al,

Well, drained the oil, removed the bolts and MAN...I think the pan is epoxied to the block. I would have complained if it had leaked, it did not...but it sure as heck doesn't want to come off...!

Towards the end of this afternoon, after trying to cram razor blades and paint scrappers under the oil-pan rails, and not pry it off with a crow bar and bend the flange into oblivion. No room any way...

So, got out the torch. Tried killing the sealant/gasket compound with a torch. Heated until the joint was smoking and bubbling, got a lot of the perimeter lose...still tough stuff.

Reluctant to get crazy with the heat near the crank dampner, but tomorrow will go at it again.

Friend suggested dead blow hammer on corners of the pan, but the gasket stuff is not a brittle shellac, it is a very resilient rtv type stuff ...laugh or cry...well, it never did leak...

Will report again tomorrow, hopefully earlier than later.

Did drain the oil through a cheese type cloth, but really couldn't see anything in the oil to speak of...surely most stuff is settled at the bottom of the pan. Never drained the old cold before, took forever.

Pete

[RICK LAKE]

Pete Monroe Pete heat will not help. If it's gray RTV, The crowbar and dead blow hammers will be needed. If you bent the oil pan you can just straighten it out on a flat surface after it's off. I use a couple of scrapers and start at a corner and keep adding force and work your way down 1 side of the pan. At this point, just pull the motor unless Jerry want to GIVE you a spare motor he has laying around for the bandaid fix he want to do. Jerry has better than 30+ years of racing. For 1 more run at the track or finals I would agree. Take a look, add new bearing and oil pump and go for brought. Just hope not to spin any mains or the block could become junk. How about getting a second motor for the car?? Find a short block and convert your parts onto this block? Save this motor for a spare or as Jerry said rebuilt it in the winter. This is if you have avaerage pockets to do this. If not, I think it's real nice of Jerry to offer a motor to use for the summer in your car. Rick L.

[madmaxx]

I had the same problem with an oil pan, used propane torch and hammer putty knife into gasket, without heat it ain't comming off, unless you heat the balncer directly no way to damage, to much mass to heat and flame not hot enough

[Jerry Clayton]

Propane?????????????????just hold the unlit torch at the oil drain hole until you can smell it coming out the top breathers, reinstall the drain plug, drop a lit lady-finger fire cracker down the oil fill hole, hold your hands over your ears, and then pick the pan up off the floor -----------

[Jerry Clayton]

Bandaid fix??????

If it wasn't that Rick was on east coast and Pete on the west coast, I would pick up Ricks engine and drive it out---

I believe that it is vitally important that the cause of this issue be identified---and pulling the pan and looking at the bottom end in the vehicle is the surest way to start--if the material is thrust bearing flange material, it is probably caused by a bell housing/plate/input shaft length/clutch throw out bearing issues---If it is , it needs to be fixed or it will happen again---crank endplay needs to be checked with the engine/tranny together looking for this problem---

There is a reasonable percentage that its a crank thrust bearing and if the crank isn't dead, it will only need a new main bearing---(I'd change all bearings and oil pump plus checking clearances) The oil filter has 99+ done its job of protecting the oil gallies from debries---

AND OF COURSE, there exists the possibility that its all scrap---------and will have to come out.

But, A Cobra is one of the only vehicles in any of our garages that you can get the pan off of without the steering and frame crossmembers in the way.

[madmaxx]

Very little to no risk, he is heating the flange, once again to much mass to heat except directly where flame is.

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Propane?????????????????just hold the unlit torch at the oil drain hole until you can smell it coming out the top breathers, reinstall the drain plug, drop a lit lady-finger fire cracker down the oil fill hole, hold your hands over your ears, and then pick the pan up off the floor -----------

[Jerry Clayton]

Lets see now----where is the fuel line routed on this car????

at least know where the fire ext is and don't have anything parked just outside the garage door so the flaming vehicle can be rolled out into the street---


But maybe nobody else has been around a vehicle on fire that was blocked in------

An electric heat gun will work tho

[Rick Parker]

We are kidding ourselves to think this can be resolved by simply replacing the bearings. He is are not running rounds at the drag strip. This is going to entail a complete inspection, disassembly, clean up and rebuild. The top end is probably salvageable but the bottom end will definately require work, possibly even the piston bores. One small particle of metal or (?) can keep the pump bypass open BUT with the engine fully warmed up and at speed on Willows and at tun 3 the oil will be doing crazy things inside the pan especially if there is no scraper. Pete: If the plate with the scraper which bolts
to the bottom of the Aviaid Cobra pan was left out to allow for the girdle, I would encourage you to rethink that decision. The floor pan/scraper is much more crucial for Road Race/ Open Track application with 331 stroke than a girdle is, unless you're running 12.5 Compression or Nitrous.
It is easy for all of us to "Armchair Quarterback" the situation, we all have an opinion. This was a bearing failure that cause the annihilation of the bottom end. Unfortunate. Not the kind of Gold Panning you want to do...........

[Pete Munroe]

All,

Oh, thought a bit before got under the car with a lit torch.

1. checked and insurance won't cover self-immolation.

2. FWIW the gas line runs up the left rear of the engine by the firewall and electric pump is in left rear

3. Did replace the oil plug...although at the end of the afternoon, gave some thought to inserting an M-80 and blowing the darn pan off.

4. removed ALL the gasoline soaked rags and coffee cans from the garage. Hey, once a year pick up all the debris.

...an aside..."Never do this"...used to use gas on a rag to clean the chassis...one time dropped the trouble light while I was jammed under the car. A sudden lucid thought...man, this is STUPID and dangerous!

OH, need to schedule when Jerry can drop off Rick's extra engine.. ! kool

Today I will get the pan off, pull the pump, look around and pop some bearing caps...will report back later..!

My vintage-racer machinist friend probably would cut off all communication if I don't pull the engine and clean it out...or at least refuse to lend me his trailer to tow home a car with a ventilated block...while laughing.

Leaning to going the hard way, and pulling it down. I'm not in a series making points, so if I'm down for while I'm not screwing up a schedule and other folks time.

Very seriously considering replacing the scrapper and adding a ACCU-SUMP.

Lower end girdle is overkill at my output lever. I built the lower end as stout as I could afford (parts circa 1999...infamous Eagle H-beam rods, forged crank, Ross forged pistons) and used a mild cam. Durability was priority.

If it IS a thrust bearing, will be looking at the length of the TKO output shaft...it's the Chevy unit (I forgot why, number of splines on input shaft I think) and have read they can be too long. Do not know if a hydraulic throw-out exerts any pressure after you release the clutch, but all that will be out again. Flippin' wonderful.

As this unfolds there should be endless fodder for discussion..!

Thanks again, Pete

[madmaxx]

You might want to take it to a shop