oil pressure LOST, and then 24 hours later BACK

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Propane?????????????????just hold the unlit torch at the oil drain hole until you can smell it coming out the top breathers, reinstall the drain plug, drop a lit lady-finger fire cracker down the oil fill hole, hold your hands over your ears, and then pick the pan up off the floor -----------

I really like this idea!!!!!!!!!!!!! Will have try it someday...........

David

[madmaxx]

I forgot the audience if you are too ignorant not to heat the fuel line, the bottom of the oil pan and if the engine is submerged in oil then you are right beat it off and use a crow bar, I forget the lack of common sense on this forum at times

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

...I forget the lack of common sense on this forum at times

Industrial magnet on the oil pan, braced to the frame, then just use an engine lift to gently pull the engine up from the top.

[RICK LAKE]

Jerry Clayton, Now you have done it. We have been dropped from machinist to mechanic to armchairs. I'm gald Mr. Parker who lives in Cali and calls Madam Cleo's for mind readings has all the answers. I thought that only Patrick T. was using a crystal ball.
As far as motors, I have a 410 FE out in the garage. 482 is in cobra, 498 is at machine shop for special work. I hear that maybe Run&Gun may return to St.lious next year. I'm going to stop by the shop and see the master at work.
As far as pete's motor, we agree on a rebuild, and finding out what damaged the motor. If Pete is going to keep racing the car a drysump might be the best for you in the long run. I would still over build the bottom end with a gridle and scrapers. I don't beleive that either of these parts caused the failure of the motor. They again are not cheap. About $2,500.00. The cool thing is the filler for the tank is like the orginial in the r/s fender unless you go to a trunk mounted one or pass floor. I am looking at the old Dove setup with some corrections. Rick L.

[Pete Munroe]

All,

Got the pan off. I finally dropped the starter (as if it wasn't coming off anyway!). Then had room to get the putty knife further around the perimeter...did use the torch, seemed it did help.

Considered trying Jerry's idea of blowing it off but the fireworks stands won't be open for a few weeks and DARN, I'm out of dynamite...again.

Oh, on the pan, The plate bolted to the bottom that covers the trap door assembly...was NOT removed until now for the photo. But I DID remove the sheet metal dam (spot welded on) that ran from front to rear...sort of a "fence" to keep to keep oil from climbing the wall...maybe not accurate to call it a "scraper", more of a baffle.



Anyway, couldn't get the pan on with the "flow dam" in place over the girdle...do plan to replace the flow dam, and try to figure out how to retain the girdle.



In the picture the "bolted on bottom plate" IS off so you can see the junk.
FWIW the trap doors are free and easy to move, no binding.

In the picture of the lower end, maybe someone can tell if its a standard or high-volume by looking at the depth of the pump body...will pull it later on and check the parts number later. I ask as whichever it was, it was shimmed to lower the pressure when the engine was assembled. Initially over 100psi after shimming ended up about 80 cold. I do NOT want to do that in the car, the engine was on a test stand when that was done.

Judging by the amount of junk in the pan, very plausible, as someone suggested, stuff was sucked up against the pump screen and blocked it, dropping oil pressure further. When the engine was shut off, it fell back to the bottom of the pan. Man, you guys are good...

Until I clean up a bit and plan how to organize parts, caps, etc I am going to wait to pull the rod/main caps.

Seems pretty foregone at this point the engine is coming out.

Will post more photos when the caps come off.

Thanks, Pete

[Dwight]

Pete next time just email me and I'll UPS you one of my special pan remover.

Dwight

[Pete Munroe]

Dwight,

Did you get that off the "ACME Implausible Devices" website? You know, same one Why Lee Coyote shops at..?

Thought I saw that right next to the rocket powered roller skates...

Oh, and now a good idea...sent to me by Argess ( thanks!) on a way to remove an AVIAD pan.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...PanRemoval.jpg

I had tried it myself...but it didn't occur to me to use the jack...his diagram is great.

Pete

[Jerry Clayton]

you can now check the end play with a screw driver between a main cap and the counterweights on the crank.

Whose girdle is that???

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Pete:
A couple of things,I had a similar girdle on my race engine and had to "beat" the built-in crank scraper back against the pan wall to clear the stud girdle (Canton pan), I doubt there is a pan out there that would fit with the crank scraper in place....on that note: had a nationally known engine builder told me the only thing the girdle will do is hold all the parts and pieces together when the engine blows up, and that's exactly what it did when I blew my engine....he advised that it was not neccesary unless one is using forced induction and 8000+ rpms...since I don't use forced induction and have a 7000 rpm rev limiter in the race engine, I did not use a girdle on the new engine...I rather have the crank scraper than the girdle.....

Next;that is a lot of "junk" in the pan, not good,it came from somewhere......
on the oil pump, the only way to tell if it is a high volume or not is the part/casting number..... I have both by Melling and they are identical from the outside, the difference is in the gears on the inside, that's all.......

I see you pan has the trap doors,same as mine,the only thing I could see if your motor starved for oil is a high volume pump and you were maybe low on oil in the first place??????? I've never expirenced low oil pressure or a drop in oil pressure in long sweeping turns with my set-up at all, with the pan you have,you should not either....My pan looks pretty much the same as yours inside and it holds 8 quarts....since it is the exact same depth as the stock pan, the stock dipstick works just fine, with my external oil filter and 12 AN lines and oil cooler, total capacity is 10.5 quarts....
I'm thinking something else caused your problem, ate up the bearings,debris clogged the oil pickup screen,causeing low oil pressure, then no oil pressure...

I don't think the oil pump nor the pan are the cause of the problem......just my opinion.....

David

[Pete Munroe]

Jerry,

Was just under the car again briefly and looking at the 3? main...realized I wasn't sure what I could pry on and not (like the damper), so thought I would deal with that tomorrow. It superficially didn't appear to be thinner on one side than the other but want to start prying and measuring tomorrow.

FWIW do you use a dial indicator on the end to measure movement? At this point you guys that do lots of build-ups know what you're looking for. I want to try to put accurate numbers on measurements so I can get a visual and tactile feel for what 0.0X feels like.

Fiddled the rod caps around, all seemed the same as to side clearance, but I do not know what the max side clearance should be.

Questions...if a crank has excessive end play, and the bearing is NOT shot, do thrust bearings come in oversizes or do you have to weld up the crank?

Same thing for rods...if the clearance is excessive, the rods are trash..?

Was planning on new ARP rod bolts. The ones installed have been torqued several times (long story) already.

Distributor gear looked good, what I could see of it. It was in very good condition 2500 miles ago.

Pete

[Jerry Clayton]

Pete--there isn't counterweight on the #3 main so you will need to pry on them up front one way and at the back the other--you can check the endplay with a feeler guage at the #3 main--pry one way, measure, pry the other way, measure to verify(should be same both ways) In this situation you are only looking for causes of the metal and the thrust flanges are one common source of brass/copper type stuff.

Yes some engines have thrust bearings that can be gotten with oversized thrust dimensions--yes , if worn , a crank thrust can be welded/reground.

Rod side clearance is not a problem unless it isn't enough----there is no oil flow on the rod journal unless the rod size is suffient to let it out--in these days of aftermarket cranks and rods, it is a vital measurement ----also it needs to let oil sling up onto the cam and lower cylinder walls---the old days oil squirt holes aren't in the aftermarket rods-

Looks like you will probably be pulling the engine as there's quite a bid of Alaska there( oh, California had a gold rush too)

[Pete Munroe]

Dave,

Not impossible too low on oil, but it should have been at 8 qts. That said, in the past I have added as much as another 2 qts, it still does it...infrequent and unstructured sessions on the track aren't much help for testing and having good input. The problem has been present since first time on track and the wear has been accumulating for years?

Will go check quart by quart as I add oil, and verify my marks for 6-7-8 are accurate. Would like to know the max oil I could put in the pan and not overfill it and get into the spinning crank

Removing the dam on the side of the pan may have compromised it more than I would have thought. Lots of people have run the pan with no problems, I certainly do not drive hard enough to create any problems.

The lower end support will probably go, no need to hold the lower end together if you are at a low, ~ 400 hp output? and, aren't starving bearings for oil.

Will add back the dam. AVIAD is close enough to drive up and either buy or make a pattern of the piece I cut out.

Will be adding a ACCU-SUMP. Hate to use it as a band-aide for a system that has something inherently wrong, but this is too much of a pain to deal with again and trash a perfectly sound engine with premature bearing wear.

Pete

[Rick Parker]

Hey Rick.....You might want to consult with Madam Cleo yourself, see if she can possibly help you with your spelling & grammar. Better yet click on this SpellCheck.net - Free Online Spell Checker

[vector1]

the one pic looks like someone panning for gold!

the oil pump looks standard volume, can't tell for sure without a side shot.

i wouldn't even mess with it, start the pull process.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Pete Munroe

Dave,

Not impossible too low on oil, but it should have been at 8 qts. That said, in the past I have added as much as another 2 qts, it still does it...infrequent and unstructured sessions on the track aren't much help for testing and having good input. The problem has been present since first time on track and the wear has been accumulating for years?
Will go check quart by quart as I add oil, and verify my marks for 6-7-8 are accurate. Would like to know the max oil I could put in the pan and not overfill it and get into the spinning crank
Removing the dam on the side of the pan may have compromised it more than I would have thought. Lots of people have run the pan with no problems, I certainly do not drive hard enough to create any problems.
The lower end support will probably go, no need to hold the lower end together if you are at a low, ~ 400 hp output? and, aren't starving bearings for oil.
Pete

I agree with 400hp,the stud girdle is not needed.......easy to chceck how much oil is enough and too much....with the pan off,put a straight edge across the top of it and measure the depth from the pan rails to the bottom where the oil pickup goes....then put the straight edge across the lowest part of the engine internals,(crank counter weights) when they are at the lowest point down into the pan, measure from that point to the block where your oil pan bolts,now you take that measure and use it on your pan to see how far the engine internals will be in the pan and mark the inside of the pan, now take a 1/2 gallon or gallon jug and fill with water and with the pan on a level surface,begin pouring water in the pan till you get to that point, that'll tell you how much oil you can have in the pan before it hits the spinning crank...if your dipstick is in the timing chain cover,you can take a measurement as to how far it will go down into the pan and see if your marks are accurate..
Did this on my Canton pan just for the heck of it and the normal oil level is right at the point where the pan comes up in the rear, basically the lower sump part is totally full and no oil on the rear part...measured the dipstick and it was correct also...You should also check to see exactly how far the oil pickup is from the bottom of the pan while things are apart.....
Since I've used 3 different oil cooler over the years,different sizes,when I changed the cooler, I started with 8 quarts and then started up the engine and let it run for a minute or two,shut it off and then checked the dipstick and added as needed to bring it up to the full level,depending on the oil cooler,it takes from 10 to just over 11 quarts......
I'm still wondering what happened,with the type of pan you have with the trap doors in the bottom,if your engine had an adequate amount of oil in to begin with,it should not have starved for oil even in a long sweeping turn...

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Will go check quart by quart as I add oil, and verify my marks for 6-7-8 are accurate. Would like to know the max oil I could put in the pan and not overfill it and get into the spinning crank

Your pan itself may be an 8 quart capacity pan,you also have to add the capacity of the oil filter,your oil lines to the remote filter and to the oil cooler and capacity of the oil cooler itself,I'm guessing all total at least 10 quarts....

David

[madmaxx]

The high volume pumps have longer rotors, so the body would be longer. Call melting they will tell you the dimension. I agree to much in pan, I hate to say it but it looks like a tear down keep checking it up to you to replace bearings and button it up and fire it up see how it idles oil pump at 4k rpms is 8 gpm , if high volume so in on minute your oil is filtered, on second thought pull engine and disassemble it over

[Pete Munroe]

Dave,

Will be checking the liquid level in the pan so I can verify what/where 8 qts of oil is, and double check the dip stick.

In the past two or there changes I have drained the pan, and then added the new oil and noted the level for 6-7-8 on the dip stick...at that time start the engine and check it again, add as necessary

This time the notes go in my log book.

Using the water, pan off will be a good visual, and double check the stick, etc.

At this point the engine is coming out and getting cleaned out.

thanks, Pete

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Pete: what is the model # of your pan??? I'd like to compare it to my Canton pan....
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...&category=1502

15-630S - 302 FRONT SUMP 12" WIDE 14 GA. RR PAN
Our Price: $360.00 .

David

[HealeyRick]

I knew I was experiencing deja vu reading this thread. Take a look at this one with what appears to be the same culprit ... Turn 2 at Willow: IT'S OVER - bearings toasted - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum Eddie even had the same symptoms of no oil pressure then back to normal: let's try a new oil pump - please recommend one (story included) - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum Good look with your fix!