Any difference on how much heat a starter can take?

[Caprimaniac]

Hola!...
This summer I got even more trouble starting the 347 when engine was hot.
I installed a relay that is turned over by the factory starter enganging wire and leads the + directly from the battery to the starter relay. This has helped alot.

I have one of those mini hi torque Powermaster Mastertorque starters and it's been working most of the time in the 7 or so years it's been running. Been taking it apart and fixed small things a couple of times. However- it has let me down quite alot of times when the engine is hot. Too bad you cannot drive away from the gas station.... By the way I'm running one of those heat blankets now, without noting any real difference.

Are there any difference on how well starters keep up with heat?
In other words; can I get a new starter and expect better performance?

Regards
RS

[vector1]

i think i read somewhere the ford diesel starters were used by one of the aftermarket suppliers and relabeled as a mini hi torque starter....

[olddog]

I have a 347. I purchased a running car, so I cannot say what starter is on it. It is a smaller starter than factory. I assume it is a mini high torque of some type. It has never failed me. On a hot day when I get gas, I can tell it turns a bit slower, but it always starts just fine.

If you are certain that the wire size is adequate (both positive and the ground), and the battery is not the problem, then I would look at a different starter. My car has the battery in the trunk and a short wire grounded to the frame. Then a ground wire went from the frame to the engine. My starter turned slow and the voltage meter dropped to 9.5 volts when cranking. I really didn't like putting 500 amps through the frame. I added a heavy ground wire, from where the battery attached to the frame, to a bell housing bolt near the starter. The starter turns faster and the volt meter only drops to 10.5 now.

[Caprimaniac]

A Ground cable directly to the engine is not a bad idea; I can see that... I might test to see if there's any difference. And maybe figure a good way to go from the trunk and forward... what about running a bolt W nut on the chassis strap to the body from the battery and running a ground cable under the car up front to the engine? Or even a short one to the gearbox? I'd guess that'd be OK?

As for Ford starters: I did find something at the Corral about a SN95 (is that correct?) starter that's supposed to be nice on the 302.
It has all cable attatchment on the end of solenoid- part of the starter.

Thanks
RS

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I have the old type factory starter on my 65 Fastback,with a lot of idling,it would "soak up" the engine heat,headers damn near wrap around it......I put a heat sheild blanket over it and this cured my problem.....

I'd say if you have the heat shield and still have problems, it would be the starter........
try this one,go to your local parts store and ask for a a starter for a 94/95 Ford T-Bird with a 302,also make sure you tell them it has a standard trasnmission in it if your car is a standard, (the starter for an automatic and a standard DO NOT interchange)....
This is a Ford factory high torque mini starter,they usually run about 80 bucks.......I have one on my race car and a I know a number of racers using this very same starter on 600+hp high compression engines with no problems.....

David

[YerDugliness]

I went through rebuilt starters very quickly on a Cleveland engine.

Finally, I gave up and took one to a shop that rebuilds starters and alternators...never had a problem again.

The moral of the story is "Don't go cheap, go good". I suspect the same result could have been achieved had I just bought a NEW starter from my Ford dealer...the rebuilt stuff could not stand the heat in that small engine compartment (it was a 1971 Mercury Comet, the same car as a Ford Maverick), but a quality rebuild returned the starter to as-new condition and the problems disappeared.

Cheers, and good luck!

Dugly

[vector1]

DB Electrical - Mini - Hi Torque

maybe something here....

[olddog]

Steel is not the best conductor, especially when high amp is drawn such as a starter. Low current stuff doesn't matter for auto stuff. It's not good to ground the battery to one end of the frame and the engine to the other. That's a long distance to pull that many amps through steel. A really good quality jumper cable from the battery negative to a starter bolt should be a good test to see if it makes a difference.

If you are loosing a volt or so through the conductors (frame), the starter motor will pull more amps to make the power needed to turn the engine, provided the battery will supply it. The higher the amps the hotter the starter gets. Over time the extra heat may be take its tole.

I have noticed people will run plenty heavy wire on the positive and then overload the negative. The negative side doesn't seem to get much thought, but what ever current is flowing on the positive wires there is an equal amount on the negative.

[Rick Parker]

IMO this is the best design, used in everything from 500 inch Pro Stock to Formula Ford. Hitachi Starter, often copied never duplicated.

Tilton Super Starter Universal 98-073 Severe SBC BBC Ford Roush Yates Nascar | eBay

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by olddog

Steel is not the best conductor, especially when high amp is drawn such as a starter. Low current stuff doesn't matter for auto stuff. It's not good to ground the battery to one end of the frame and the engine to the other. That's a long distance to pull that many amps through steel. A really good quality jumper cable from the battery negative to a starter bolt should be a good test to see if it makes a difference.

Agree.

Originally Posted by olddog

If you are loosing a volt or so through the conductors (frame), the starter motor will pull more amps to make the power needed to turn the engine, provided the battery will supply it. The higher the amps the hotter the starter gets. Over time the extra heat may be take its tole.

Any voltage drop (resistance) in a circuit lowers the current draw. A variable resistor for dash lamp dimming is a example.
A starter motor operating at 10 volts instead of 12 volts is drawing less current, hence lower cranking speed.

Originally Posted by olddog

have noticed people will run plenty heavy wire on the positive and then overload the negative. The negative side doesn't seem to get much thought, but what ever current is flowing on the positive wires there is an equal amount on the negative.

Agree, both cables should be the same size, the bigger the better.
If the battery is in the boot, both cables should go directly to the starter motor, the negative should be engine grounded close to the starter.

[Ron61]

My battery was also in the trunk and I ran heavy cable from there to the front. I also had a gear driven starter built by a local starter shop and in all the years I had my Cobra and with the racing and heat, I never once had the engine so much as drag when I started it. And one of my header was about 6inches from the starter. I did after the first year or so fabricate a polished heat shield that I could put between the header and starter. I don't like the header wrap or blanket type heat shield.

Ron

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Any voltage drop (resistance) in a circuit lowers the current draw. A variable resistor for dash lamp dimming is a example.
A starter motor operating at 10 volts instead of 12 volts is drawing less current, hence lower cranking speed.

Yes, lower voltage gives lower amp with a resistor, however a motor is an inductive load. I was thinking in terms of an AC motor where the hz is proportional to rpm. If you drop the voltage to an AC motor it will pull more current to make the same power, since the rpm and torque load does not change (in a given service). But a starter is a DC motor. So yes I was wrong, but for a different reason. Your correct, but may have missed a point.

With a DC motor (starter), rpm is proportional to voltage and current is proportional to torque. There is a voltage drop from the resistance of the conductors (wires and frame). So the voltage at the motor is lower, resulting in less rpm. Since it will be turning the engine slower it will take a little less torque to spin it slower. In fact, the motor will pull a little less amps. However there are amps flowing into the resistance in the conductors, heating the wires. The total amp draw at the battery will be higher than what the motor pulls. Too many variables that are unknown to say if the amp draw on the battery will go up, down, or a wash. The hotter the wires get the more the resistance and it kind of turns into a snow ball, where more and more power is going into heating the wires and less and less voltage is getting to the starter motor.

If you do not have heavy enough wires or bad connections, this can happen. When the conductors are all good, the numbers become insignificant and none of this matters.

[RICK LAKE]

Caprimanic RS do a simple voltage check when cranking the car at the starter terminal and see what the voltage reading is. IF it's a mini start the voltage should drop more that 1.5 volts. IF the battery is reading 12.0 volts the start if a mini should not go below 10.5 volts max. The motor and trans are mounted on ruber mounts most times and this makes it hard for electriciy to get to the motor from the frame.The easiest thing for you to do is mount 2 ground straps to the block and or bell housing with clean contact points and add another ground off the battery to the chassic of the car if the battery is in the trunk. Need to remove the paint or use star washers to get the best connact. Add a little dye electric grease on the connects. This keeps moisture alway and stops corsion of the contact points. The other question is where is the timing on the motor when you try and start the motor after a hot heat soak. You may need to get a retard for startup the motor hot. Small note if the car is going to sit for a couple of minutes and it's hot, open the hood and let the heat out. Use anything soft to not scratch the paint. This helps alot on hot days and just stopping for gas. Rick L.

[Caprimaniac]

I'll do sme "grounding" work this winter and see where it goes next spring.
I'll even get a new starter as I'm assembling another 302 as well.

Tilton, although pricey, makes good stuff as far as I know. I may go with one of those.

Thanks
RS