Ford Racing 427W ate cam gear

Luce · #1 (**permalink**) 03-31-2013, 11:35 AM

Well, per the everything I read, with a roller cam, you should use a steel gear. So I paid my $65 to MDS for their steel dizzy gear. Well, 1100 miles, and i was chasing an erratic timing problem. Luckily, I was in the driveway when it finally jumped a tooth. After setting the timing 4 times and still not getting it to crank, I thought I was having a stroke or something because it was 90 deg retarded after I know I had it on within 5 deg or so....

The real question. I need a new cam. If the rollers are PERFECT, do I need to change them with the cam? I think that may be a flat tappet only rule, but I would rather not have to pull it apart again trying to save $400.

I'm considering what cam with to go with. As it is, the HP peak is at the recommended red line. The bottom end parts sound like they could rev a bit higher. Maybe the limit is valve float. I honestly don't need any more power, but maybe a tad less cam would give better low end torque, but then again, it has enough and I like the sound of a well done downshift.

Somewhere, I saw a dyno graph of this engine, and I can't find it back. Torque peak is 4800rpm 545 ft lbs, HP peak is 5600rpm 535HP, and still climbing. My instinct is rev it more to use that power or tune it down to where you are allowed to run it. Is Ford being overly cautious on the redline for warranty reasons?

I'll also do a major inspection, including pulling a few bearing caps to check. I'm betting I'll replace the oil pump because I think the shards were small enough to get past the oil screen, but I didn't notice any oil pressure reduction. I will replace the lifters if there is any sign of damage to the wheel.

Cam recommendations from anyone?

vector1 · #2 (**permalink**) 03-31-2013, 01:16 PM

no cam recommendation, well, maybe the one that is in there. but there is a pipe plug behind the distributor shaft inside the block, pull it and drill a very small hole in it to lubricate the shaft & gears. i'm talking pin size.

bobcowan · #3 (**permalink**) 03-31-2013, 01:20 PM

The redline is generally a function of the valve train. Especially the lifters and springs. If you want to raise the rpm limit, you'll need to change those two items. And, really, unless you're racing, there's not much point in it. Except that it sounds cool.

When the distributer and cam gear go, it sends all that trash through the engine. The oil filter should pick it all out, if there's not too much. When that happened to me, I pulled the pan and cleaned it out, and disassembled the oil pump for cleaning and polishing. Then I flushed it by doing a couple of oil changes with cheap oil and a good filter. I ran it that way for another year without any problems.

Luce · #4 (**permalink**) 03-31-2013, 03:06 PM

Ford racing give the spec's of the cam, but not the manufacturer. Howard has quite a few and say they're made in the USA. Any comment or manufacturer recommendation?

I'm leaning to going back with something very close to what I have to a little less lift and duration so I don't run into problems with valve/piston improper interaction. Same with the valve springs. I'll maybe measure the current height so I can explore possible heavier springs for more RPM's, but I don't plan on pulling the heads to verify clearance, so I'm not going with any longer duration.

Thanks

blykins · #5 (**permalink**) 03-31-2013, 04:44 PM

I'd be more than happy to help you with cam selection.....shoot me an email if you wish.

I'd be more inclined to find out why it ate the gear first though...

Check the distance from the distributor flange to the end of the gear. There is a spec for the gear to be installed by and if it's too short/too long, it can do what you're describing.

Lifters are cheap. Most likely, Ford Racing used the OEM spider and OEM lifters. If so, a new set is about $110...

Luce · #6 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 07:09 AM

I don't recall the dimension, but It was in the docs I downloaded from Fordracing, and I was in spec. Also, the contact patch on the distributor gear was in the middle of the teeth.

I didn't get a dizzy gear pic, but I did get a pic of the cam gear with my little USB snake camera. It was all drenched with oil, too.

I suspect a bad, unfinished gear from MDS, or a soft cam. Next time around, I'm thinking I want to use the bronze gear on the dizzy and change it as needed. It's a simple operation compared to changing the cam.

Thanks Brent. I'll give you a call later this morning. I'm hoping you can just set em up with what I need to do it this weekend.

blykins · #7 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 08:04 AM

I would rather have a steel gear any day.....the bronze gears aren't noted for their longevity.

carmine · #8 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 08:17 AM

Luce wrote:
"Well, per the everything I read, with a roller cam, you should use a steel gear"

With a (FORGED STEEL) roller cam. you should use a steel gear.

Eg: If its a comp cam part # _ _- _ _ _-9 . The -9 indicates forged steel roller cam, which in turn suggest you use steel gear.

Was your cam made from forged steel or cast iron?

Luce · #9 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 09:21 AM

The Ford docs said use a steel gear.

Cut and paste from the PDF...

DISTRIBUTOR GEAR INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS
:
The M-6007-Z427FFT/FRT comes with a billet steel hyd
raulic roller camshaft. M-12390-F steel distributor
gear required.

I used the MSD steel gear. I checked my receipts.

carmine · #10 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 09:30 AM

Cam gear looks completely gone.

Paste a pic of the distributor gear so we can see and compare to cam gear pic.

Luce · #11 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 10:14 AM

I don't have one with me. I'll take one when I get home. It's totally intact. The mating surface is a little bit galled and mottled, but there doesn't seem to be any material missing.

I questioned the dizzy gear when I bought it. The mating surface was a satin black parkerized looking finish instead of a polished shiny metal like I expected. In retrospect, I wonder if it was not yet finished or something. It was $65 and top name stuff in a factory sealed package, so I said whatever, put a little bit of grease on it and installed it.

carmine · #12 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 11:05 AM

I have a steel gear from MSD on my dizzy aswell and it looks exacly as you discribed. Satin black parkerized looking finish.

For your cam gear to wear like that it seams that it was way softer than the dizzy gear.

Makes me question if the cam was realy billet steel or somthing softer.
Or may be the dizzy gear was way harder than it was suppost to be.

To much cam end play or distributor and cam mesh to tight along with wrong materials.

Luce · #13 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 01:24 PM

I can see where the dizzy gear rides on the block, but it's no chewed up or anything. The bottom of the gear again is shiny where it mates with the block. The cam pulls the dizzy down, and the dizzy pushes the cam back in the block. The dizzy has some end play, but it was in spec of the depth measure so the clamp isn't forcing the gear down. Here's a pic of the gear.

The mesh location on the gear goes up and down as you go around. I think this is due to the chewing of the cam gear. But there is very little (in comparison) metal missing from thisw gear.

DAVID GAGNARD · #14 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 02:11 PM

A little off topic, but related........I just ordered a Ford factory distributor at the local O'Reilly's for a 1985 Mustang GT 302 engine, (last year of the carbed engines) to use on my 331 carbed engine.....I wanted one with the factory vacum advance on it and I'm tired of fighting rusted MSD distributors........
anyway, it does say it comes with a steel gear for a roller cam, which is what I need......

My question is: I don't trust this at all, is there anyway to tell the difference between a steel gear and a cast iron gear used on a hydraulic flat tappet cammed engine?????

Distributor should be in wensday morning........

David

carmine · #15 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 05:23 PM

Luce

The wear on the cam verses the distributor gear seams to point to the distributor gear being steel and the cam gear being cast iron

carmine · #16 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 05:35 PM

David

Should be able to tell by looking at it

Cast iron gear has rough cast finish on the un machined areas

Steel gear has machined finish on all surfaces

DAVID GAGNARD · #17 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carmine

David

Should be able to tell by looking at it

Cast iron gear has rough cast finish on the un machined areas

Steel gear has machined finish on all surfaces

Thanks for the tip, I never really paid any attention to this....I have a distributor out of a 94 Mustang GT,factory roller cammed engine,the gear looks almost like new, I tried to take it off and save it, but it is either frozen on the shaft or welded on

, I tried everything I know of and never got it to move even .00001 fo an inch,including heat form a torch!!!!!!!!!
I was going to use this distributor, but since my engine is a carbed engine and this distributor is for a computer controlled/fuel injection engine, the electronics will not work, hence the 1984/1985 style distributor for the factory carbed cars......
the computer at O'Reilly's says it comes with a steel gear,I just don't trust any parts place anymore with this kind of info,things change all the time and they rarely update their computers to these changes.......

I'll compare it to the one I already have when the new one gets here in a few days.....
Thanks again:
David

Luce · #18 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 06:08 PM

Honestly, I have one of the first Ford 427w's. At the time, the PDF instructions were not yet available. I read around and thought that all roller cams were steel. My engine may not have had a steel cam. I never saw anything specifically saying use a steel gear until way after I had already installed one and didn't look back. I saw the PDF saying use a steel gear well after I had mine installed.

Brent has hooked me up with replacement parts and now it's just a waiting game. I'm hoping I get the stuff before this weekend, but not counting on it. It'll be a PITA, but it will clear up a lot of issues that were making me question things I know as fact and making wilder and wilder theories to explain the troubles I was having. I'm happy knowing what the problem is so I can fix it.

Dwight · #19 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 07:50 PM

A friend just when thru this Comp cam / steel gear thing.

Comp bought some cam blanks (or made them) out of very hard stuff. They are eating up all dist. gears. My buddy use the poly gear which lasts 8,000 miles.
After calling the builder and Comp he found out that Lunati has a new gear that works with any cam but only fits stock dist.
The builder drilled out the gear to fit my buddies MSD dist.

All problems solved!

I would never use a bronze in a street motor. The gear will wear out (fast) and you have all that bronze dust in the oil going thru the bearings! Not on my motor.
They OK on a race motor that gets pulled down a lot.
Dwight

dallas_ · #20 (**permalink**) 04-01-2013, 09:34 PM

Well that's very interesting. My Ford Racing 427W also ate my cam gear.

Pulled the motor and sent it back to Ford because luckily it was still under warranty. They made it good, but gave no reason as to why it might have happened. I was using the distributor gear they recommend for the cam.

I've seen a fair number of distributor gears eaten up, mostly due to material mismatch, but have seen very few cam gears eaten up.

Mine looked like about 1/3 of the teeth broke off. It did not look like wear.