Engine rebuild - advice wanted

[dcdoug]

I was at VIR at SVT Superfest last weekend with the track car (TrackRat) I share with a friend. My first time at VIR and a great weekend.....right up until TrackRat ate it's crank.

The engine was built in 2000 and has probably seen 8,000 track miles since then, so we were thinking we'd rebuild this winter anyway. Guess it will be sooner than that.

Sooooo......here is what's in there now.

Engine Details RWHP/TQ 360/360 (dynoed recently):

From the builder in 2000 (but not verified as we've only owned it for a few years, although we also know the previous owner):

Built by Terry Iselin Racing Engines
302 with main girdle
Probe Pistons, neg 3cc dome
10.45:1 compression ratio
Childs & Albert rings, z depth (zero gap), 3/16 second ring
Probe tool steel wrist pins, .125 wall, .927” x 2.500”
Eagle 4340 steel crank, 3.400” stroke
2.100” rod journals (Chevy size)
ACL bearings
Eagle 4340 connecting rods, 5.4”
TFS twisted wedge heads, 63cc, flowed 260cfm @.500 lift intake, 167cfm @.500 lift exhaust; 2.02” intake valve, 1.600” exhaust valve
Crower valve springs #68390-3
Lunati cam, 224/232 duration, .568/.578 lift, 112 centerline, installed at 108
Edelbrock manifold
70MM throttle body
MAF, K&N air filter
WMS programmable EFI computer system
MSD 6a ignition, Ford Racing high output coil
Griffin radiator with integral oil cooler
Canton road race oil pan
HPM large tube headers with X pipe

Criteria:
Track only application
Want a 302 based block so existing equipment bolts up easily
Durable
Needs to run on 93 octane
At least the same HP/TQ, more is better....
Willing to reuse existing equipment
Quality over budget, but still paying attention to the budget (not totally defined yet)

Ideas we have been kicking around:
-Buy a short block from Ford Racing and reuse existing components
-Sell our existing top end and buy/build a complete engine
-Carb vs EFT?
-Send our top end to a builder and get his evaluation of matching that to a strong bottom end
-Buying a racing crate motor
-Using a builder for all part of the above (blykins, you paying attention?) - note: this is my preferred course of action, although I have a partner in this track car and it's not 100% my decision.....

Anyway, opinions welcome!

[Rick Parker]

Did you spin a bearing or did the crank fracture?

[Barry_R]

Looking at that list you already have some very good parts there. You could easily reach those goals just by fixing the damaged piece unless something went catastrophic. Might be as simple as a new rotating assembly and a freshen on the rest.

[RICK LAKE]

DC If you are going to race full time, the couple of things I would change is aftermarket block and use all the good parts from old motor. Save old motor as spare bullet for during race season. Have all the lastest oiling mods done to the block for faster return to oil pan. If mind, add an oil line to back of motor at the lifter galley. helps supply oil to back crank and rods faster on startup and racing.
Can you go dry sump?? This would be a BIGGIE for longer life of the motor. Not cheap but worth it. If this is not doable add a 3 quart accusump to the oiling system with manual control.
rest of parts seam great and all work togeather for that motor combo.
When where the valve springs replaced?
No valve job but check the valves for sealing on the seats with fluid and a light valve hand grinding to reseal.
Intake manifold, if this was not ported send to Joe Craine to have ports balanced for flow, same applies for injectors, clean and have flow checked.
New O 2 sensors and way you go. Rick L Ps what main or rod bearing went??

[blykins]

Hi Doug...

You and I go back a ways, so give me a call and we'll see what we can do. I would reuse as much as you could, but steer clear of the Eagle junk. A 4340 crank should not break in a 400-425hp engine. Of course there can be other reasons as to why that would happen....bearing failures, balancer failure, etc., but I have 0% confidence in anything with Eagle's name on it.

That 347 should make some serious power with a little more cam and a carb setup or a different EFI setup altogether. The Edelbrock EFI intakes are not known for their ability to move air.

[dcdoug]

Thanks for the advice guys!

A few responses/comments:

-While the car is a dedicated track car, it is used ~10x per year in HPDE events, so not raced hard core, so dry sump is seems like overkill, but accusump seems like a very good idea.

-With little kids I don't have a lot of time for major projects, so durability is a big deal and I'd rather spend a bit to upgrade components if necessary.

-The crank is definitely broken (crank pulley wobbles when you turn it over along with some unpleasant metallic noises). The engine is still in the car and probably will be for a bit, so I can't attest to contributing factors that led to crank failure. Also don't know what other collateral damage came with the crank failure....yet

-Oil pressure didn't drop, but also didn't increase with RPMs as much as I would have liked, so that may have been a contributing factor.

-I believe the 302 block is the original that came with the car, so an aftermarket upgrade would probably be a good idea

-I thought the older Eagle cranks were better (this was probably a 1999 Eagle crank)? Doesn't really matter since it's broken, just curious.

-Maybe want to replace the Eagle connecting rods too.

Any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

[blykins]

Unfortunately, any Eagle crank, no matter what year is a grenade in my opinion.

You do not need an aftermarket block for your power levels. A block alone would start at around $1700, plus machine work. With your heads, intake, and cam, it's simply not warranted unless the money tree is in bloom.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by blykins

Unfortunately, any Eagle crank, no matter what year is a grenade in my opinion.

You do not need an aftermarket block for your power levels. A block alone would start at around $1700, plus machine work. With your heads, intake, and cam, it's simply not warranted unless the money tree is in bloom.

OK, that's good to hear (I guess assuming the crank didn't take out any webbing, etc). I guess we won't know till we pull it. I'll give you a call later this week to chat about options.

[dcdoug]

Oh, I added it into my original post, but the motor needs to run on 93 octane like it does now.

[blykins]

Shouldn't be a problem.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

The engine was built in 2000 and has probably seen 8,000 track miles since then, so we were thinking we'd rebuild this winter anyway. Guess it will be sooner than that.

Don't know what kind of rpms you'll turn with the engine or what rpm you usually shift at, nor what kind of maintenance you do on the engine or how hard you'll beat on it, but I will say after 8,000 track miles,you got your moneys worth out of it..........
and without knowing what all is damaged,it could be as little as the crankshaft or the whole bottom end........

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I'm not trying to start a debate,nor am I looking for one,just stating what's in my 2 cars....

First car is a dedicated road race 65 Mustang,331 cu in.,alum. heads,13.5 to 1 compression, shift at 6500rpms, 7000 chip in the MSD box which I hit on almost every track..just shy of 500hp..I've run oil temps of up to 270 depending on the track and outside air temp......While I "use" the engine for it's intended purpose, I have at times abused it,but not on a regular basis....
With all that said and done, my rotating assy. is/was an Eagle 4340 forged unit...4340 forged crank,chevy journals,4340 forged H-beam 5.4 rods...solid roller camshaft,forged Diamond dome pistons....it ran 7 long hard seasons with only regular oil changes,probably as many miles as you'll put on you'lls car......
It did break, 100% my fault when I screwed up on re-assembly after 7 years.....all it required at the time was a light hone in the cylinders and new rings/bearings, that's it......I replaced the rotating assy. with another, the exact same one I had in there before.......
I saved the crank and 6 rods and they were re-used in another 331, street engine making about 425 hp....this is a street car engine (car #2,65 Fastback) that doesn't go past 6000 rpms.........so far,so good......

David

[dcdoug]

We typically shift between 5.5-6k RPMs, so I don't think we were over revving it or abusing it more than any engine that spends most of its life above 3k RPMs.....

[Rick Parker]

If that is all you rev it more camshaft would be of no benefit?

[dcdoug]

I've been a bit tentative with this engine as I just didn't trust it. I'd love to have more faith in it and would be happy to push it harder.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by dcdoug

We typically shift between 5.5-6k RPMs, so I don't think we were over revving it or abusing it more than any engine that spends most of its life above 3k RPMs.....

With your forged rotating assy., your well within what the parts can handle,your certainly not over revving the engine or abusing it with rpms,IMHO of course......

If that is all you rev it more camshaft would be of no benefit?

I looked in the Lunati catalog and could not find those exact cam specs, maybe a dis-continued camshaft,but did find one very close to that,advertised power band was 2000-6000 rpms.......so revving it any more would not gain anything.......and honestly,for a track car that you don't want to break the bank on and still run pump gas and have an engine that will last as long as this one has and run as many miles and only need basic maintenance, keeping your shift points to 5500 to 6000 rpms and top rpm at no more than 6500 is the way to go.......

First of all, you need to find out what happened to this engine and why, then go from there....

David

[dcdoug]

As we look at options, does anyone have opinons on the new 363 500hp Boss Crate Engine?

363 CUBIC INCH 500 HP BOSS CRATE ENGINE REAR SUMP | Part Details for M-6007-Z363RT* | Ford Racing Performance Parts

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by dcdoug

As we look at options, does anyone have opinons on the new 363 500hp Boss Crate Engine?

363 CUBIC INCH 500 HP BOSS CRATE ENGINE REAR SUMP | Part Details for M-6007-Z363RT* | Ford Racing Performance Parts

No opinion one way or the other, but don't forget to add in the price of the intake manifold/carb/distributor/plug wires as this engine doesn't come with these items and a lot of other "crate engines" DO......

David

[dcdoug]

I think we could certainly get it done less expensively than this by reusing a lot of our existing parts, but this is a relatively quick turnaround option and the 2yr warranty is enticing.

Any known reliability issues for these big bore 302 Boss engines when being used almost exclusively for HPDE events?

I assume we could reuse our existing distributor and wires, but I think we will want to upgrade our intake and possibly go to a carb. We will also need a new flywheel as our engine had a non-standard balance.

The in-between is obviously a short block.

I am also talking to Brent about rebuild options.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by dcdoug

I think we could certainly get it done less expensively than this by reusing a lot of our existing parts, but this is a relatively quick turnaround option and the 2yr warranty is enticing.

Any known reliability issues for these big bore 302 Boss engines when being used almost exclusively for HPDE events?

I assume we could reuse our existing distributor and wires, but I think we will want to upgrade our intake and possibly go to a carb. We will also need a new flywheel as our engine had a non-standard balance.

The in-between is obviously a short block.

I am also talking to Brent about rebuild options.

Forget the warranty,it goes out the window the first time you put the car on a track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As is with most engine builders.............

David