Alloycars Aluminum Bodied FORUM Project

[Alloycars]

So let me understand. The MKIV body is in fact a copy from an original Cobra. Any reason why not using it?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

So let me understand. The MKIV body is in fact a copy from an original Cobra. Any reason why not using it?

As soon as the Mk IV (latest revision of the Roadster offering) came out, that is the body they have been using. Any of their "Red" fiberglass roadster bodies are based off that digitized scan of Dick Smiths #188 (CSX3035).


Where you will have issues in attempting a similar digitization of any other CSX2000 or CSX3000 series car is that each one was hand built, and hand formed to a chassis. As such, each one is different than the other, even if they were built side by side, by the same craftsman.

As mentioned above, this will be the same issue you have with using an FFR MKIV chassis, as each chassis has small differences from the next.

As for attempting to make a bolt on bird cage to mount to the current FFR MK IV chassis, a bolt on body and birdcage will never be as strong, or as safe as one that is welded on and properly mounted and supported.


Bill S.

[NewYorkGuy]

alloycars/Ingo

Have you considered a partnership with Dave Smith @ FFR to sell an alum body car?
he does the sales. U make the bodies.

also, i do not understand your business plan. Are u just making one-offs or do u want to be a steady supplier of alum bodies in the USA?

big picture is price: can u deliver a roller with an alum body for half the cost of a Kirkham roller ($90,000) ?

[G-Pete]

Originally Posted by Buzz

Will you guys just stop with the pissing contest? Leave it in the other thread. If nothing else - lets enjoy the speculation of what a feasible alloy bodied Cobra product could entail

Well, not just no but HELL NO.

Do you think I let this guy insult me and he gets away --- no chance.

The story changes by the hour - he had all opportunities to come clean and start off new.

But no, that individual choose the path where it goes now...

[DanEC]

In my opinioin the MK IV FFR body is a reasonably authentic looking body although I can't imagine they didn't take a few liberties to adapt to their basic chassis platform. But, it's hard to get too critical when the originals were so variable and didn't even match from side to side.

Does the MK IV still have the pads under the front turnsignal lamps? Has anyone figured out what went wrong with the license plate and trunk handle interference? Also, if planning to go to the expense of a hand-formed aluminum body, please put the slight rocker panel bow at the very bottom to mimic original cars for those of us running under-car exhaust. The exact shape of the wheel openings could probably stand a little attention too.

The FFR chassis has a lot of upper bracing for the fiberglass body that would not work directly for riveting an aluminum body to and would be redundant. In my mind, there would almost have to be a frame adaption kit to replace some of the upper FFR structure with either a structure for riveting the body to - or to provide mounting points where the body with attached supporting structure could be bolted down.

This would all seem easier if there were some sort of formal partnership between Alloycars and FFR on this. Is that something being thought about? I may have missed in somewhere in all the fire, smoke and debris of the earlier threads.

My 2 cents

[LMH]

The MKIV FFR body is closer to the original SC/Comp body but it isn't an exact reproduction of 3035. Wheelbase is 90", as per original.
Larry

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

alloycars/Ingo

Have you considered a partnership with Dave Smith @ FFR to sell an alum body car?
he does the sales. U make the bodies.

also, i do not understand your business plan. Are u just making one-offs or do u want to be a steady supplier of alum bodies in the USA?

big picture is price: can u deliver a roller with an alum body for half the cost of a Kirkham roller ($90,000) ?

Actually we are selling cars, ready to drive and with an aluminum body starting under 85,000. They are based on MKIV.

Bodies? I have to make a conversion kit first and then I will know something about the price. I am still evaluation the whole situation as I still search for an "attachment" solution.

With FFR I have an agreement with Tony that we are going individually and we agreed that future customers can in fact buy kits from FFR without a bodies getting the respective discount. I cant build a high quantity like FFR as they are quick to built, at the other side I think we could produce 6-8 kits/month for sure. Lets see.

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

alloycars/Ingo

Have you considered a partnership with Dave Smith @ FFR to sell an alum body car?
he does the sales. U make the bodies.

also, i do not understand your business plan. Are u just making one-offs or do u want to be a steady supplier of alum bodies in the USA?

big picture is price: can u deliver a roller with an alum body for half the cost of a Kirkham roller ($90,000) ?

Actually we are selling cars, ready to drive and with an aluminum body starting under 85,000. They are based on MKIV.

Bodies? I have to make a conversion kit first and then I will know something about the price. I am still evaluation the whole situation as I still search for an "attachment" solution.

With FFR I have an agreement with Tony that we are going individually and we agreed that future customers can in fact buy kits from FFR without a bodies getting the respective discount. I cant build a high quantity like FFR as they are quick to built, at the other side I think we could produce 6-8 kits/month for sure. Lets see.

[twobjshelbys]

Is this a sustainable business model? Figure your TAM (Total Available Market). It's very small since the market is already owned by Kirkham (and to some degree, Shelby). So if you are going to build a body shell for someone to add over a FFR frame, etc, you're truly left with the "kit builder" crowd. The number of people who are willing to invest in a body kit from some one with no track record is very small. As I replied when Seven7 was trying to justify his split off, it's not a business I would make an investment in.

Second, this will be a very labor intensive product. For high quality it will be hard to compete with Kirkham, and for low quality the issues will be fit and finish left to the buyer. There is enough variation even in the factory cars that it will be an issue.

This is not a case of "if you build it they will come".

Good luck though.

[CHANMADD]

Give it up man .......You are showing your assholeness.........

Originally Posted by G-Pete

Well, not just no but HELL NO.

Do you think I let this guy insult me and he gets away --- no chance.

The story changes by the hour - he had all opportunities to come clean and start off new.

But no, that individual choose the path where it goes now...

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

With FFR I have an agreement with Tony that we are going individually and we agreed that future customers can in fact buy kits from FFR without a bodies getting the respective discount.

For clarification, who is "Tony"



Bill S.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Is this a sustainable business model? Figure your TAM (Total Available Market). It's very small since the market is already owned by Kirkham (and to some degree, Shelby). So if you are going to build a body shell for someone to add over a FFR frame, etc, you're truly left with the "kit builder" crowd. The number of people who are willing to invest in a body kit from some one with no track record is very small. As I replied when Seven7 was trying to justify his split off, it's not a business I would make an investment in.

Second, this will be a very labor intensive product. For high quality it will be hard to compete with Kirkham, and for low quality the issues will be fit and finish left to the buyer. There is enough variation even in the factory cars that it will be an issue.

This is not a case of "if you build it they will come".

Good luck though.

Getting back on topic ...

Originally Posted by Alloycars

As told I am willing to go for a FFR MKIV conversion kit with an aluminum body together with this forum:

I have seen that a MKIII is a totally different world but I got a good idea as in fact the body construction himself will not change...just the shape.

So lets start. What I need?
- I have information that the MKIV body is a copy from an original car. Is this right?

- Hood, doors and trunk aluminum panels from an original car are supported by individually tubular subframes. The MKIV has fiberglass and a front subframe.
SHould this be changed?
For body to chassis attachments we can go later.

Originally Posted by Alloycars

Actually we are selling cars, ready to drive and with an aluminum body starting under 85,000. They are based on MKIV.

Bodies? I have to make a conversion kit first and then I will know something about the price. I am still evaluation the whole situation as I still search for an "attachment" solution.

With FFR I have an agreement with Tony that we are going individually and we agreed that future customers can in fact buy kits from FFR without a bodies getting the respective discount. I cant build a high quantity like FFR as they are quick to built, at the other side I think we could produce 6-8 kits/month for sure. Lets see.

Untitled Page
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[ACademic]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

Actually we are selling cars, ready to drive and with an aluminum body starting under 85,000.

Are you describing turn-key or turn-key-minus? If the latter, then what's stopping someone from paying perhaps $5-10K more for a Kirkham roller, which not only comes with a proven record and spot-on accuracy but is also supported by professionals that constantly exhibit sound character?

Good luck with your builds and your business plan. I truly applaud your entrepreneural spirit...at least you have that going for you and I will follow the progress of this project if only to enhance personal knowledge.

[twobjshelbys]

As part of the business model due diligence consider the following:

You are proposing selling an aftermarket rebody kit for an already established product line that is all fiberglass. If you were asking for venture capital money I would want you to explain why you think this is a good idea when in fact FFR doesn't offer the product in aluminum, even as an option.

You may be better off becoming a supplier to FFR for alloy bodies and let them absorb the secondary costs of warranty, dealing with fit, etc.

[Three Peaks]

After seeing the Factory Five offerings, which I think are an excellent kit and well built, there are many differences between them and an original style body. I am building (almost finished) an Exact Carbon Cobra built on Roger's original spec'd frame and the differences are huge. Since this is splashed off an original body, it isn't symmetrical so copying an original will be an exercise in futility, IMHO.
Better to simply copy the Factory Five body completely or do like the Kirkhams and do a scan and clean it up side to side and make the body symmetrical- then try to figure out how to fit it to the Factory Five chassis.
If you go original with the body (albeit making it symmetrical ala Kirkham), you would need to make modifications to the Factory Five frame to make it fit. some of these modifications may end being pretty substantial, some are more minor.
For instance, the outriggers would need to changed and/or shortened and the mounting points relocated to accomodate the wrap around at the rocker that the originals had and the Factory Five doesn't. The Mark IV does have some wrap around at the rocker- more than the early models, but not to the extent the originals had.

The birdcage is already in place in the Factory Five chassis, but will it fit your original style body? Probably not, unless it closely matches the Factory Five body to begin with. Otherwise, more time and money would need to be spent altering the birdcage. For a kit builder, these two items would be a huge undertaking, not to mention expensive since most would have to take it to a welder to have the modifications done. These are not easy modifications to do, as I have done the bird cage and most of the smaller tubing modifications/additions on my chassis.

In my opinion, if you want to go forward with this idea, you need to basically copy the body of the car you intend to replace the body with. If you wish to go with FFR as your first foray, your best bet would be to buy an FFR base kit Mark IV, bring it to your shop, and do some homework to see what is the best way to proceed. You may scrap the idea, you may produce a matching body, or you may decide to offer a kit with the necessary parts to adapt your body. If you are planning on offering a complete car, you may need to familiarize yourself with US laws and regulations regarding selling complete cars. There is a reason the Kirkhams, ERA's, Shelbys, and other kits are sold as rollers as there are extensive rules and regulations in place that would make selling a complete turn key car cost prohibitive.
On top of everything else, I think at your price point of $85K turn key, I think you are painting yourself into a very small niche corner where you won't make enough money to be able to sustain your business model for very long.

Bob

[twobjshelbys]

Another business model question:

In the past 10 years:

a. How many people have started manufacturing Cobra replicas?

b. How many people have exited the business?

Chances are b > a

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Another business model question:

In the past 10 years:

a. How many people have started manufacturing Cobra replicas?

b. How many people have exited the business?

Chances are b > a

Including mom and pop operations (Less than 20 kits annually)

A=7
B=13


Bill S.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

For clarification, who is "Tony"



Bill S.

I asked before on one of these threads, but where is FFR on this? Kirkham certainly weighed in. I would like to hear the FFR position straight from them sometime.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I asked before on one of these threads, but where is FFR on this? Kirkham certainly weighed in. I would like to hear the FFR position straight from them sometime.

Does Tony work for Factory Five Racing?

Again just asking for clarification.


Bill S.

[kevins2]

Hi Bill,

The answer is likely yes, if this is the same Tony he's talking about.

https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-ne...ome-additions/

By the way, this thread is mistakenly in the "small block talk" forum...