Alloycars Aluminum Bodied FORUM Project

[AL427SBF]

For objective club members to present ideas, suggestions and opinions regarding a FFR MKIV aluminum outer shell and other structural, mechanical or cosmetic upgrades.
.

[J.Jensen]

How many FFR mkIV cars are out there?

I think starting to make a replacement alu body, at least if the goal is 100 point accuracy like they did the Spyder, why not go into a niche of the market that nobody covers?

We have ERA with fiberglass in kit, roller and turnkey on top of the fibreglass game, and there is nothing linking the gap between them and the Kirkham.

Why not make a kit with as close to 100% accuracy as possible - but deliver an alu body on top of it? Since Kirkham only makes complete rollers only needing engine and trans, someone should cover the kit market with that quality and originality as a goal.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

For objective club members to present ideas, suggestions and opinions regarding a FFR MKIV aluminum outer shell and other structural, mechanical or cosmetic upgrades.
.

Ah yes, but to stay objective, one must first see where Alloycars is coming from. To do so, they only have to CLICK HERE

As stated elsewhere, the idea and concept is sound, yet in order to reach their broadest market (the FFR rebody concept), they will need to make subtle and not so subtle changes to their "molds" and substructures.

MK I
Mk 1.5 (known as the first tweener chassis)
MK II
MK II.5
MK III
MK III.5

and finally

MK IV.

Each chassis had running changes made to them, and as such, each offering from Alloycars will need to be able to adapt to those changes from one FFR chassis to the next, especially with a "bolt on" aluminum body offering.

One idea would be to offer their services to adjust and custom mount such a body/subframe to a customers rolling chassis. In this way, the craftsman who are building their 550 Spyder could do the intricate work required to get the body installed and properly aligned on each specific chassis. This would eliminate the need for multiple offerings as stated above.

Another idea, one which Ingo/Tom alluded to would be to offer a body already mounted on a new MK IV chassis.

Now, staying objective, the main issue I see is cost, if they can do it for say 20K (body mounted on chassis, not including FFR base kit in that figure), they will hit it out of the ballpark. if they expect someone to cough up say 40K+ for one of their bodies mounted on the customer supplied chassis, I think they will miss the target audience that they are going after.

Same goes for the offering of an aluminum body for an ERA, SPF, Unique, etc. As the engineering that would be required to adapt an aluminum body to each would be cost prohibitive, even with a projected 10 year break even.

Just the two cents worth from someone who has been around these cars since 1979/1980 and has watched all sorts of companies and ideas come and go in that time.



Bill S.

[LMH]

it would pretty much be something where you took your FFR to them and they did all the frame mods and fit the body. Lots of labor and not for the inexperienced.
Aluminum doesn't stand on its own like fiberglass.
Larry

[Alloycars]

First, thank you mrmustang for trying being objective...even showing a link where you posted your false accusations.

As told I am willing to go for a FFR MKIV conversion kit with an aluminum body.
I have seen that a MKIII is a totally different world but I got a good idea as in fact the body construction himself will not change...just the shape.

So lets start. What I need?
- I have information that the MKIV body is a copy from an original car. Is this right?

- Hood, doors and trunk aluminum panels from an original car are supported by individually tubular subframes. The MKIV has fiberglass and a front subframe.
SHould this be changed?
For body to chassis attachments we can go later.

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Ah yes, but to stay objective, one must first see where Alloycars is coming from. To do so, they only have to CLICK HERE[/url]

As stated elsewhere, the idea and concept is sound, yet in order to reach their broadest market (the FFR rebody concept), they will need to make subtle and not so subtle changes to their "molds" and substructures.

Bill S.

First, thank you mrmustang for trying being objective...even showing a link where you posted your false accusations again.
You also have officially declared that your knowledge about MK chassis are not like as they must be ...YOUR WORDS: "MKIII dosent have a square chassis....Alloycars hasnt build this car...it came from Kirkham and it is an MKII)
Its backfiring now and dont try to secure your position. You are and you will be a keyboard sling shooter.
And my apologize that I am not willing to accept your "excellent" knowledge for our project.

[Buzz]

As accurate as possible body shape is the key to any alloy bodied Cobra project. Most people willing to step up to an aluminium body will want an aesthetically correct looking car with all of the subtle characteristics of body shape, stance, ride height and wheel-to-body relationship that define a faithful replication.

I agree with others that a body/frame combination based on the already available FFR chassis would be a good way to go. Kirkham is the acknowledged market leader and gold standard in this segment so a new sub-niche at a lower price point would need to be established and exploited. Keep the focus on visual/external accuracy (as opposed to an inside and out engineered exact replication) and keep costs down by using as much already-available hardware and components as possible.

For accurate body shapes to replicate, look to cars like ERA, Kirkham and Exact Carbon Fiber, etc. Pay attention to the way the body sits over the wheels/tires and the overall stance of the finished car. Tires MUST fit inside of wheel arches and not protrude from the body.

Some other important visual details that Cobraphiles look for (others may be added):

Visible roll bar legs in cockpit
Radiator tilted back
Height and shape of roll bar
Engine compartment layout
Dashboard layout
Shape of radiator opening and oil cooler intake
Windshield angle.

PS - Do not respond to personal attacks in this thread even if they happen. The moderators have probably had enough and the threads will be closed down. Nothing will be accomplished.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

First, thank you mrmustang for trying being objective...even showing a link where you posted your false accusations.

Sorry, but everything I posted in that other thread can be backed up by pure fact and your own posts prove that. Adding such nonsense to this thread, continuing to deny what you have posted and/or used, showing a complete lack of personal responsibility will only cause the demise of what could be a quite productive thread for your company. Perhaps you are not tech savvy enough to understand why this is so, but there are plenty of others who are, and have seen through our underhandedness.

So, before you respond again, I suggest you take a step back from your computer, take a few deep breaths, and think before you start typing, as you are only doing your personal reputation, and subsequently the reputation of your company harm.


Bill S.

PS: Might I add the following: All ideas written here are the sole property of said participant. As dated and time stamped by the forum software. Not certain what that means to you and your company, I suggest that you seek legal counsel to explain it to you.

[Alloycars]

As told I am willing to go for a FFR MKIV conversion kit with an aluminum body together with this forum:

I have seen that a MKIII is a totally different world but I got a good idea as in fact the body construction himself will not change...just the shape.

So lets start. What I need?
- I have information that the MKIV body is a copy from an original car. Is this right?

- Hood, doors and trunk aluminum panels from an original car are supported by individually tubular subframes. The MKIV has fiberglass and a front subframe.
SHould this be changed?
For body to chassis attachments we can go later.

[Alloycars]

I have some trouble to post as I have to wait 5-10 minutes before the thread shows up. Sorry

[Alloycars]

Ok, so lets get right. MKIV bodies are not a copy of originals as FFR claims???

[Buzz]

Will you guys just stop with the pissing contest? Leave it in the other thread. If nothing else - lets enjoy the speculation of what a feasible alloy bodied Cobra product could entail

[Alloycars]

And yes, I will not respond to personally attacks anymore as this is worthless. Lets gather information enough to get this project done.

[Buzz]

They are based in part on scans of an original car but there are some deviations in the proportions. Its a good car but not the most accurate in appearance.

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by J.Jensen

How many FFR mkIV cars are out there?

I think starting to make a replacement alu body, at least if the goal is 100 point accuracy like they did the Spyder, why not go into a niche of the market that nobody covers?

We have ERA with fiberglass in kit, roller and turnkey on top of the fibreglass game, and there is nothing linking the gap between them and the Kirkham.

Why not make a kit with as close to 100% accuracy as possible - but deliver an alu body on top of it? Since Kirkham only makes complete rollers only needing engine and trans, someone should cover the kit market with that quality and originality as a goal.

I think this is the way to go. I need some wheelbase information and see if there are some modifications to do. The goal for now is getting FFR cars rebodied. This can be made with original body shapes too....at the end its the same effort.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

Ok, so lets get right. MKIV bodies are not a copy of originals as FFR claims???

The MK IV from FFR is based on a digitized scan of Dick Smith's #188 original 427 Cobra.

There is no front or rear subframe for that matter, just a main frame, then the "birdcage" attached to that frame, to support their Fiberglass body. The same concept is used for the original Cobra, as there must be a "birdcage" subframe to properly support the aluminum body attached to the main frame.

As a matter of engineering, the main frame and birdcage are as one unit, the aluminum body is then wrapped around and fitted/attached to that birdcage substructure.


Bill S.

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by Buzz

They are based in part on scans of an original car but there are some deviations in the proportions. Its a good car but not the most accurate in appearance.

I have scans already from an original CSX3000 series but before I got wheelbase information between both cars I cant say if there will be some mods.

[mrmustang]

Forgot to add, there are no shims or spacers used, the aluminum body is hand wrapped and hand fitted to each chassis, since each chassis has it's own minor deformations due to production techniques used to build them one at a time.


Bill S.

[Alloycars]

We already solved the issue for the supported subframe holding the body adding/welding a proper one. Later I have to figure out if we can do a complete kit with an attachable frame in form to bolt it in or the possiblity to bring those cars to our shop. I prefer the first option by far.

[Buzz]

Can a body already attached to a birdcage/subframe that will bolt to existing or added mounting points on a basic FFR chassis be built?

EDIT - I think you just answered that