Best way to proceed with improving up 427 Windsor street setup

[scottj]

We ran solid rollers in a 434 for 10 years and lifters were never an issue for us. We had around 5000 miles on one set. Valve springs had to be watched. We'd run about 2000 street miles or 1000 track miles on a set of Isky Tool Room springs. Cam was 264/272 @ .050, .660 lift, and 106 LS. We'd turn 7-7200 rpm on the track and short-shift @ 6500 on the street. It was perfectly happy putting around @ 2500-4500 as well.

[blykins]

Yeah, depends on the brand of lifter, how high the engine idles, etc. When I go this route, for a solid roller on the street, I'll use a Crower/Morel/Isky bushed lifter. Even the pressure fed needle bearing lifters will take some miles before needing rebuilt, but the bushed lifters seem to be the cats meow as far as longevity.

[Pman1961]

Brent, mine and Ace's motors are very similar with the exception my displacement is 445. I had two options of cams from Keith Craft. I chose the one that would give me the nasty idle and produce peak power around 6000 rpm. The other (do not recall the specs) would have been more civilized for the street as it was less duration and I believe 110 lobe separation. My specs are as follows:

Intake and exhaust lift .609
104 intake center line
108 lobe separation

[blykins]

What are the durations, Perry?

I like the lift, it's where I usually am with my custom grinds. The 108 LSA will make for more torque down low and the 104 ICL makes for some good street manners.

You have around 20 cubes more than Ace, so your cam will need to have more duration to help fill the cylinders.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by blykins

I'm not sure why it was used. Poor choice. That much duration in a hydraulic roller with a 427 inch engine will kill the bottom end and kill the top end too. As I said before, this is what all the fingers are pointing at, IMO.

Nothing wrong with the 112 LSA, BTW, it helps with vacuum and with making the curve broader, but that duration is just out of the ballpark. When you see advertised durations near 320-330 degrees, that's why your cranking compression is very low.....TONS of overlap and the intake valve is not closing until very late.

I have custom hydraulic rollers that I like to use for my 427's and as I mentioned before, you're about 12-14 degrees too high...

You will get a kick out of this. Just come across an 11 year old copy of a second strike article in all the information that came with my car. There was a specific article on a 427 camshaft.....and there right before my eyes my exact camshaft duration numbers were spelled out with a description following that called it a turd cam with no bottom end and not enough top end that required 2400rpm in top gear!

[Pman1961]

Sorry Brent I was in a rush to mow the lawn!!

Gross valve lift intake and exhaust .609
Duration 0.50 Intake 254
Duration 0.50 Exhaust 262
Intake centerline 104
Lobe separation 108


My cam according to the dyno starts coming on hard at 3000rpm when intake and cam start working together. I originally wanted a cam to make good mid range and top end power to keep from boiling the tires every time I hit the pedal. Car has to be at least 2100rpm to keep from bucking. Sounds great but makes slower or city traffic less enjoyable. It's not like a slug down low just less torque. I may one day tone it down a little. Aces car had nothing anywhere. We are going to check out a few things but more than likely we will be doing a cam change and I'm sure you can recommend him the ideal camshaft!!

[RET_COP]

The life of a Hydraulic roller on the street
The life of a solid on the street
are we talking as far as lifters go because springs are another matter.
Brent, I don't have any experience with bushed lifters but I hear that oil has to be clean and changed often, and I know some people just ignore this part of maintenance.

[madmaxx]

What do you guys think about this cam for a 427 stroker?

Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 236

Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 248

Duration at 050 inch Lift: 236 int./248 exh.

Advertised Intake Duration: 299

Advertised Exhaust Duration: 327

Advertised Duration: 299 int./327 exh.

Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.574 in.

Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.595 in.

Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.574 int./0.595 exh.

Lobe Separation (degrees): 110


I had one for years but it required 450 lb open and 220 seat to keept the valves from floating, I used ford racing stock hydraulic lifters with no ill effects. Last time I spoke with owner he had 40K on the engine.

[RET_COP]

If it's a hydraulic I like it. Im running 450 on the nose and170 on the seat. With the good morels, no issues whatsoever. That's alot for a Ford lifter or any oem but if it worked, great

[blykins]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

What do you guys think about this cam for a 427 stroker?

Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 236

Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 248

Duration at 050 inch Lift: 236 int./248 exh.

Advertised Intake Duration: 299

Advertised Exhaust Duration: 327

Advertised Duration: 299 int./327 exh.

Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.574 in.

Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.595 in.

Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.574 int./0.595 exh.

Lobe Separation (degrees): 110


I had one for years but it required 450 lb open and 220 seat to keept the valves from floating, I used ford racing stock hydraulic lifters with no ill effects. Last time I spoke with owner he had 40K on the engine.

I like to run a little more lift and with a modern cylinder head, unless you're drag racing, there's no need to split the duration by 12 degrees. Most of the newer heads, such as the AFR pieces, Trick Flow, etc., have exhaust flow that is way over 70% of the intake side. You can run a 3-4° split and cut the overlap way down.

The intake duration at 236-238 is about where I'd head for a 427. I have some lobes that I like that are not noisy, not overly lazy, and not overly aggressive. You lose a lot of cylinder pressure with advertised durations way over 300 like that.

For spring pressures, I can turn 6500 on a SBF with a hydraulic roller and 150/375 spring pressure. It takes a correctly designed lobe and eyeballing the weight of the components.

[madmaxx]

Shoot at 150/375 spring pressure my valves floated at 5300 rpm with the aforementioned cam. It did have AFR 205 heads and I assume their stock AFR components.

[blykins]

With 63°+ major intensity, that cam was pretty lazy. May have had something else going on.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Shoot at 150/375 spring pressure my valves floated at 5300 rpm with the aforementioned cam. It did have AFR 205 heads and I assume their stock AFR components.

Max: on my current 331 stroker with a hydraulic roller cam...quoting these numbers from memory,so they are not exact, my notes are not handy right now..

lift is somewhere around 525 to 550, duration is only in the mid 270 degrees range (I don't care for "lopy" cams) ,I have the spring pressure set at 150 on the seat, don't remember what the open pressure is.....Stock Ford OEM small block hydraulic roller lifters,good 1.6 roller rockers (don't remember the brand name) and I've turned this engine 6500 rpms with no hint of valve float....rev limiter is at 6250 right now........I'd bet the rent it would go to 7000 before any hint of valve float.....

Very old ,third hand,swap meet set of Edlebrock Performer alum. heads,but they have had "some" work done on them.....I don't remember what brand/size valve springs I put on these heads,but they were a really good set..

I think the combination of valve springs/rocker arms/lifters and the valve train geometry have a lot to do with what rpm the valves will float at.....

BTW: Mud racing is a big thing down here for the last few years and seems to be growing....One top racer who is a personal friend, has a machine shop/engine building service and long time racer....they are turning 460 cu in big block Ford engines 8,000 rpms, average run last about 25 seconds..rules mandate OEM cast iron heads,but you can do pretty much anything to them other than change the original valve angle and they must run a hydraulic flat tappet cam/hydraulic flat tappet lifters and pull 14 inches of manifold vacuum at 1,000 rpms.....

How they do it without valve float,I have no idea, but they do it all day long......

David

[Texasdoc]

If you're going to replace that cam, definitely call blykins. Tell him what intake and heads you have, go with his recommendation. I put one of his cams in my 351/408. I'm running 500hp/600tq at the flywheel and very steetable.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

If you're going to replace that cam, definitely call blykins. Tell him what intake and heads you have, go with his recommendation. I put one of his cams in my 351/408. I'm running 500hp/600tq at the flywheel and very steetable.

If everything checks out and the cam needs to be replaced then I will be working with Brent. How do you like that dual plane intake? I thought about ditching the victor jr and going going with a port matched rpm air gap

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by blykins

With 63°+ major intensity, that cam was pretty lazy. May have had something else going on.

And 79 on the exhaust.

Definately an "old school" cam grind.

[Ace23]

I haven't had the car out in the last month as I've been rather busy and honestly I haven't really been itching to drive it knowing we need to tear into it. I had a chance to drive Pman1961's car Tuesday night and it was awesome! It is a 445 Windsor that made 611hp and 599tq. There was considerable more power over the entire RPM range than my motor. I've now got to decide how much more powerful I can make the Windsor or just take the big block dive and be done with it. I can already see that I would want at least as much power as the 445 setup and woudn't be against having more. Keeping a hydraulic roller I'm not sure how much more potent the Windsor can get without taking it to the edge. The big block route would definelty be more expensive but not as expensive as investing in the current setup and it not having enough for you....decisions decisions. I think the turbo hayabusa and the twin screw moduar motors have ruined me with the feel of too much power over the years!

[Bernica]

BBF and be done with it! Lot's of room for whatever you want to do later!!

[blykins]

I've got a great 557ci BBF package. Would be about 750 horsepower, very streetable.

Also have a 600 inch BBF package with an aftermarket Ford Racing block. Would be close to 800 hp range....with a hydraulic roller.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Bernica

BBF and be done with it! Lot's of room for whatever you want to do later!!

Let me be the first to say I am not trying to find a way to spend money. I've been reading and reading trying to make sure I'm not missing something and whatever I do I want to make sure I get what Im looking for. I even looking for twins screw style superchargers to use on 351W....can you believe no one makes a twin screw for a pushrod Ford! I came across a company called B & H but I think they went out of business. I think forced induction would be the last route and I would only want go that way if it was a modular setup.

Originally Posted by blykins

I've got a great 557ci BBF package. Would be about 750 horsepower, very streetable.

Also have a 600 inch BBF package with an aftermarket Ford Racing block. Would be close to 800 hp range....with a hydraulic roller.

Haha geez those sound pretty stout. Do you have to pull a fuel wagon behind you? Pman's motor pulled really dang hard 5000rpm+. I guess it would take more cubic inch in order to get the seat of the pants power and more streetabliity down low. I would consider his car to be very sorted and it ran GREAT......sounds like a beast with those 3" gutted side pipes and man it has a bad*** idle to it. A few months back I was quoted $3500-$4000 for a complete refresh on my motor and putting it on the dyno. Im sure your looking at another $3000K for punching it out to a 445-460ci and thats assuming the Brodix heads would support it. If I could sell my setup and take the money I would be putting into the Windsor platform it would be a pretty good start. I'm just looking for seat of the pants power and roll on power. This is just a street cruiser and It will never see a 1/4 mile or a road track so the additional weight shouldn't really be something to worry about.