Best way to proceed with improving up 427 Windsor street setup

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Bernica

IMHO, I wouldn't use a single-plane intake for a street application.

I have never been in a cobra with a dual plane and I don't believe any of the local cars to me have a dual plane. I was reading B. Lykins 438 Windsor build where he used a "massaged" RPM airgap and that was pretty interesting. If it is a street car that you are not reving above 6000RPM then maybe the dual plane is the way to go. Before I hauled off and bought another manifold I want to make sure it is the right one. I do not believe a dual plane would match up well with my current camshaft and 2" primary heads so that is something to consider as well. I can' find much information that is based on real world test on primary header sizes on cobras but the few things post I have come across no one was raving about their 2" headers except for higher RPM setups.

[scottj]

Originally Posted by Ace23

... I can' find much information that is based on real world test on primary header sizes on cobras but the few things post I have come across no one was raving about their 2" headers except for higher RPM setups.

What is the reasoning for using 2" primaries in this application? We didn't using anything bigger than 1-7/8" on 440+ cid, 850+ HP, dirt oval race engines... and we had plenty of real world data. Maybe 2" for a drag race application, but drag and street aren't really relatable.

[blykins]

A single plane intake on a big engine is a whole lot different than a single plane on a small engine.

An engine that has enough guts to suck hard enough on a single plane intake will have gobs of power everywhere.

I would go with a Victor Jr....

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by scottj

What is the reasoning for using 2" primaries in this application? We didn't using anything bigger than 1-7/8" on 440+ cid, 850+ HP, dirt oval race engines... and we had plenty of real world data. Maybe 2" for a drag race application, but drag and street aren't really relatable.

The headers came on the car when I purchased it. I haven't really looked at what options I have but my initial impression was that 1-3/4" would suffice as that is what most of the cars I have seen have. I'm sure the 2" flow well in high rpm applications but I would think they would be hurting the bottom end.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by blykins

A single plane intake on a big engine is a whole lot different than a single plane on a small engine.

An engine that has enough guts to suck hard enough on a single plane intake will have gobs of power everywhere.

I would go with a Victor Jr....

Brent,
I will take your advice and stay with the current Victor Jr I have. I saw where your 438W used the dual plane so I thought that may be applicable for my 427W and any future higher CI that I took it to. I have purchased some stainless fittings to dress up underneath the hood and now I need to clean the intake manifold. When I was in high school I used to work at a bike shop and we would bead blast aluminum. Is having the manifold bead blasted the best way to restore the raw finish or do you have a recommendation on how to clean it.

[blykins]

That's the easiest way.

[Anthony]

A good dual plane will still make good power.

My "stock" 427 FE, (429 ci) with an original 1964 dual plane intake, original style heads, 1965 holley carburetor 3255-1, made about 30-50 more hp and torque than the roush 427R crate motor, with "state of the art" single plane intake, heads, and carb , tested on the same dyno.

[blykins]

I would lean towards that 427R being hurt then.

I've built/dyno'd a few 427FE's with factory parts and they wouldn't touch what a Roush 427R should make by a long shot. A Roush 427R should be in the 525-550 hp range. You're saying that your FE with all factory parts made almost 600 hp?

Not saying you're wrong on what you saw, but logically, that should not be correct.

[Anthony]

Well, I built my engine years ago, but had some coolant leaking problems, turns out I had a bad intake. Had Eric at performance engineering fix my water leak - needed a NOS intake, and then dyno tune my engine.

He told me that he had installed and dyno tuned maybe 20 roush 427r's in superformances, and my engine made 30-50 more hp/torque than the best 427r he had tested.

that's what he told me. He showed my my dyno sheet, and then the dyno sheet from the best 427r he had tested.

does that mean that you are wrong ? :-)

[blykins]

Well, maybe....

Chassis dyno or engine dyno? How much hp did your engine make?

A Roush 427R is basically a Dart block, aluminum heads that flow somewhere around 300 cfm, a hydraulic roller cam, a Victor Jr. intake, and a carb. I do similar combinations all the time and they are always around the 525-550 hp mark. Coincidentally, Roush rates their 427R at 550 hp.

Logically speaking, the displacement is the same, but factory FE head/intake parts are not on the same platform as modern SBF parts, and that's where the difference lies.

Not saying you're wrong, but I think there's a discrepancy somewhere that is being left out. No way a factory 427 will beat a new Roush 427 R (or any 427 Windsor by any manufacturer) by 30-50 hp.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by blykins

Well, maybe....

A Roush 427R is basically a Dart block, aluminum heads that flow somewhere around 300 cfm, a hydraulic roller cam, a Victor Jr. intake, and a carb. ---, Roush rates their 427R at 550 hp.

Logically speaking, the displacement is the same, but factory FE head/intake parts are not on the same platform as modern SBF parts, and that's where the difference lies.

Not saying you're wrong, but I think there's a discrepancy somewhere that is being left out. No way a factory 427 will beat a new Roush 427 R (or any 427 Windsor by any manufacturer) by 30-50 hp.

Well, a factory 1964 FE crate motor did beat out a modern roush crate 427R, so I guess you are wrong.

Long before Roush and you were building crate motors, Ford was, and around 1964-65 Ford offered a crate 427 Hi-Riser , dual plane, single four barrel I believe rated at 485hp. Don't forget, NASCAR banned Hi-Riser heads from racing. I built my engine to replicate this crate motor.

I built my motor to replicate this engine, with an original intake from 1964, original Holley carb that came on that motor, and original pattern aluminum 1964 Hi-Riser heads from Dove. 1968 427 service block bored 0.017" over, cast crank. Actually, I believe there was literature from Shelby that you could have gotten this motor as an option for your 427 cobra, although I'm not sure how many, if any did, although I know a couple cobra's came from Shelby with Hi-Riser heads.

So, my 1964'ish Ford crate 427 did out perform a modern Roush 427R motor. I guess the Ford engineers back then knew a little?

[blykins]

Well, a few things we still need to point out....

1. 485 hp is a far cry from 525-550. I agree, that's a reasonable estimation for a 60's period FE. I built a 427 FIA road race motor, using C3 LR heads, and a 2x4 LR intake. Both had been heavily ported. Compression ratio was 11.5:1, cam was a large solid flat tappet. It made 510 hp.

Even 510 hp is a-ways off from 525-550.

2. We don't know what your engine made, or how it even relates to what Eric had told you about the dyno sessions. There is/was a miscommunication somewhere if you think your engine is making 575-600 hp.

I'm not calling you a liar. I'm not calling Eric a liar. I'm just saying that a factory 427FE will not make 525-550 hp (which is what the Roush 427R is rated for, and what we commonly see from typical 427 ci Windsor builds), much less make 30-50 hp MORE than that.

So, if you're going to make that claim, I would want to see more information and proof. Until then, we can all hold hands, sing "Kumbaya", and talk about what Ford did in the 60's...

[Bernica]

A long time ago I think I got close to around 550hp with a Tunnel Port using all the old Ford Muscle parts, but it was not street friendly at all.

[blykins]

Love the Tunnel Ports.....

Last 3 I've done made 580 hp, 696 hp, and 722 hp....

I still think there has been a break in communication somewhere. I know that Eric has a chassis dyno there, and to me, there would be little reason to pull (20) Roush 427R's out of the crate and put them on an engine dyno before installing them into Cobras.

My gut tells me that the info that has been provided above has all been chassis dyno stuff, which opens a whole other can of worms, and a whole other can of variables.

Would like to see the dyno sheet.

[Bernica]

I love the TP's too. I just couldn't tame it. It wanted to run to 6,000-7,000 rpm before it started waking up!

Probably my fault in the build I guess since I could only find a single-plane intake at the time and I was in no way an expert and still not.

One thing I remember... jumping on it was like flushing a toilet!

I agree that some thing is not right with dyno numbers mentioned above. Something doesn't make sense.

[blykins]

Yes, the tunnel port single plane is in a whole other level than what we would reach for when using a victor jr for a big inch Windsor.

The key to using the tunnel port intake is to make it smaller by filling in the ports. A smaller cross sectional area makes them enjoyable on the street.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by blykins

Yes, the tunnel port single plane is in a whole other level than what we would reach for when using a victor jr for a big inch Windsor.

The key to using the tunnel port intake is to make it smaller by filling in the ports. A smaller cross sectional area makes them enjoyable on the street.

Yeah, I used all stock parts and made no mods. I was just a dumb-ass "kid" at the time. Lesson learned!

[scottj]

Originally Posted by Ace23

Is having the manifold bead blasted the best way to restore the raw finish or do you have a recommendation on how to clean it.

I soda blast (if necessary) followed by vapor blasting. Vapor blasting produces a shiny finish instead of the dirt-attracting matte finish produced by most media.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by blykins

I still think there has been a break in communication somewhere. I know that Eric has a chassis dyno there, and to me, there would be little reason to pull (20) Roush 427R's out of the crate and put them on an engine dyno before installing them into Cobras.

My gut tells me that the info that has been provided above has all been chassis dyno stuff, which opens a whole other can of worms, and a whole other can of variables.

Would like to see the dyno sheet.

Actually, not many variables.

The dyno sheet I looked at were chassis dyno's. Eric told me he was impressed how good my engine ran. Mine had 10.5:1 CR. Eric told me the chassis dyno incorporated the upgraded side pipes, that I had him install on my car, as were installed on the ? superformance cobra's he also had dyno'd. He showed me the dyno sheets, and per him, it was apples to apples.

Believe what you want to believe.

Here is the dyno sheet eric gave me, of the best running roush 427R he had dyno tuned.



chassis dyno Roush 427R - Club Cobra Photo Gallery

Here is the dyno sheet of my engine, stock stroke ford FE 427 Hi-Riser heads, 10.5:1 CR, Holley 780 vac, 1964 factory Ford dual plane intake.



Chassis Dyno - Last Run 427 High Riser - Club Cobra Photo Gallery


Let's see, my engine made 40 more hp, and 50 more ft-lbs torque, not that it really matters.

Let me guess, you still don't believe me.

[twin turbo]

That's strange, all my dyno sheets show my hp and torque crossing/equal at 5252 rpm.