What to ask an engine builder selling a supercharged coyote crate engine?

MikeFromPerth · #1 (**permalink**) 12-16-2015, 06:23 PM

hi all

i recently came to hear of an engine builder/workshop over here in Australia who had a couple of Coyote crate engines for sale (one with a ford racing 2.3L supercharger) with wiring loom & PCM. i asked for some details, mentioning that i might be interested in putting such an engine (preferably a supercharged one) into a FFR cobra kit, and here is the answer i received:

Both engines are 2011 coyotes. They were purchased for a project that changed direction. The engine and supercharger kit came from Ford racing. One engine has been used for Dyno mapping and the other was assembled to be used as a mock up during the build of the car. The unused one is all together and they dynoed engine has the supercharger removed. Each engine has the ford racing PCM and installation kit. The throttle pedal is missing off the dynoed engine.
It should be possible to get them through the ICV emissions with a couple of xr6 turbo cats of GT falcon cats. The noise is just a case of fitting large enough mufflers.

For non-Australians reading this, ICV means Individually Constructed Vehicle and refers to the road registration rules (quite strict emissions and noise rules, etc etc) for kit cars over here. So I'm kind of interested but to be honest, i'm not a crate engine expert by a LONG shot and would love to hear from everyone here what questions you think i should ask the engine workshop in order to be sure what's really for sale here. Stuff like:

1. photos please! this could answer a lot of questions.
2. Dyno results
3. which exact supercharger kit is it? (and does it include intercooler/all the plumbing/etc). Perhaps it's the ford racing 2.3L whipple one for 2011 mustangs...
4. What does it come with exactly? Alternator? Water pump? etc?
5. is the engine an "aluminator XS" or "aluminator SC" or what? if my understanding is right, the SC is the lower compression ratio/stronger bottom end version, suitable for forced induction. Whereas the XS is still high CR (11.0:1 or so) but has a strengthened bottom end.
6. is the variable valve timing still active with the tune and supercharger?

so... what else should i ask?? what would you ask if you were in the market for such an engine?

cheers
mike

Bernica · #2 (**permalink**) 12-16-2015, 09:47 PM

Ask Cashburn here on this site...

1795 · #3 (**permalink**) 12-17-2015, 05:44 AM

My concern would be if it is a crate engine, are the original components substantial enough to withstand the increased pressure from a supercharger. Just because an engine produces great results on a dyne does not mean that it can manage those figures on a long-term basis. Would hate to see you invest money and then have the engine grenade a few thousand miles down the road.

Ask the engine builders here for information that you need to ask the seller.

olddog · #4 (**permalink**) 12-17-2015, 09:17 AM

Does it have an inner-cooler? (not sure the spelling)

Were larger fuel injectors installed?

Has the ECU been re-tuned correctly?

How much boost is it set up for?

I can tell you that if they push much boost, it will need bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump at some point, and bigger fuel lines possibly. The timing has to be backed off as boost goes up, as well. The point being that the ECU has to be set up properly.

MikeFromPerth · #5 (**permalink**) 12-17-2015, 08:11 PM

hmmmm.... latest response i got to my questions is:

"I don't have a pic
I don't have Dyno results.
The Dyno'd engine is sold.
The other engine is new, never run. It is a standard high comp engine with a 2011 spec ford racing supercharger kit. The engine is supplied as you buy a crate engine. Plus the supercharger kit. It is half the price the customer paid for it. It's a Bargin , no it's not an Aluminator, they cost this much without a blower. It is a ford racing PCM and wiring kit."

To be fair, he's right that it's a bargain (i won't post the price here, but it's roughly LSA money). But i share the concerns mentioned by you guys above (eg boost in a stock engine, etc) and i'm feeling more and more dubious about this.

maybe it's "LSA here i come"!

fordracing65 · #6 (**permalink**) 12-17-2015, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeFromPerth

hmmmm.... latest response i got to my questions is:

"I don't have a pic
I don't have Dyno results.
The Dyno'd engine is sold.
The other engine is new, never run. It is a standard high comp engine with a 2011 spec ford racing supercharger kit. The engine is supplied as you buy a crate engine. Plus the supercharger kit. It is half the price the customer paid for it. It's a Bargin , no it's not an Aluminator, they cost this much without a blower. It is a ford racing PCM and wiring kit."

To be fair, he's right that it's a bargain (i won't post the price here, but it's roughly LSA money). But i share the concerns mentioned by you guys above (eg boost in a stock engine, etc) and i'm feeling more and more dubious about this.

maybe it's "LSA here i come"!

If it is a Ford Racing crate engine never ran before it should have a warranty from Ford...

1795 · #7 (**permalink**) 12-18-2015, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordracing65

If it is a Ford Racing crate engine never ran before it should have a warranty from Ford...

While the engine should have a warranty from Ford, I would first check on the purchase date of the engine. I ran into a problem with an oil pump that a previous owner had purchased and installed in the engine in the race car I bought. The engine sat for over a year before I purchased it and when I finally started it up and the pump failed, there was no warranty as the pump was over a year old. Warranties start from the date of purchase, not first use.

750hp · #8 (**permalink**) 12-18-2015, 11:42 PM

Hi Mike
The shop selling the motor is very well known for performance Coyote motors, not to mention their V8 Supercar engine program. If they say the motor is in new condition, they'd be good to their word. I think they aren't spending a lot of time answering your questions because they probably just threw the advert on their Facebook page as a favour to their customer.
Coyote motors are lasting well when converting them from n/a to blown, as long as you build a safe tune into them you'll be fine.
It's a very good price for a Coyote. They can be made to look much nicer than the LSA motors too. I'm sure you've seen the billet rocker covers that this shop make. Very cool!

MikeFromPerth · #9 (**permalink**) 12-19-2015, 10:49 AM

Fair enough. I haven't seen the covers but I believe you - the GM motors are generally pretty ugly I reckon. For the record I'm not accusing them of being dishonest or anything. But like it or not, the price is LSA equivalent!

Dimis · #10 (**permalink**) 12-19-2015, 01:02 PM

I'd have bought it twice over by now, the second time because of Craig's endorsement.

However, you're not me, and I always try to live by this advice: If I can't be made to understand it in the first 30sec, or the deal don't feel right, I'm best to walk away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeFromPerth

and i'm feeling more and more dubious about this.

It sounds like you may be in this boat... True?
So I guess it's really over to you, by waiting another 30sec, someone else may make this decision for you. One has already gone, correct?

Best of luck with it! Either way, you're next move will be the best outcome for you. Life has a funny way of helping you out sometimes.

eschaider · #11 (**permalink**) 12-19-2015, 09:17 PM

Mike,

If that engine is a 2011 it is most probably one of the earlier n/a versions of the engine with a blower added on after the fact, which means it will have the powdered metal cracked cap connecting rods, n/a pistons and a tune for n/a operation not supercharged operation. Additionally later heads (2014 and later) have better valve train. The earlier heads can be upgraded to later heads but that is one more expense to consider. The cams are the early generation Coyote cams and while not bad are not as good as the later generation.

If you ask the seller about these things my guess is he will claim ignorance and not be able to give you a substantive answer. That could either be because he is attempting to be deceptive or it may be because he really does not know. Either way, unless the price is very low you would be better off buying a current production version of the engine because the cost to bring this engine current with the correct supercharged components will end up being non-trivial.

Ed

MikeFromPerth · #12 (**permalink**) 12-20-2015, 01:59 AM

Double post

MikeFromPerth · #13 (**permalink**) 12-20-2015, 02:03 AM

Thanks everyone. I don't think they're being deceptive or anything, it's more about me working out in my head what to do and what I'd be getting. I know it's a good price but I think I'll end up with an LSA. Partly for some of the reasons brought up in the posts above, and partly because I am keen to have the peace of mind of a super-charged-from-the-factory setup.

Thanks again.