Supercharger vs. N/A build!

[Cobrat24]

Originally Posted by hinoonaz

I just want to give you one more person to talk to. Robert at AIMS there in Reno. 775-359-8866. He rebuilt my 347. Unbelievable engine. He does a lot of work for my nephew at lake Tahoe and vice versa for the wood boat engines. Worth a call. No bias about all the other builders on this site. Holley 650 at 462 T and 470 hp. 9 1/2 :1 nice lopey cam and vic heads. The 408 if want over 500 IMO. Have fun.

I know Robert really well! He used to do all the machine work on my drag bike. I love that guy, he does really good work! What a small world.

[Cobrat24]

Originally Posted by olddog

Be warned that Ford started with Speed Density. It uses a MAP sensor in the manifold to estimate what the air flow into the engine is at a given throttle position. It does not work well with big cams, as the vacuum can be lower at idle than it is at off idle with such a cam. Second it does not automatically adjust for altitude changes. When you turn the key on the ECU saves the MAP sensor reading and assumes that is the atmospheric pressure. It does not update again until you turn the engine off and restart. So if you drive 4000 feet up a mountain, its no better than a carb, however turning the engine off/on is much easier than changing jets.

Then Ford went to Mass Flow to truly measure the mass of the air entering the engine. It handle big cams much better than speed density, and you can start at sea level and drive to 12000 feet with perfect AFR. Now there are issues with big cams, but that is another long story on what is needed to compensate.

Most after market system are speed density with an option to go to alpha N. Alpha N uses throttle position only and is more crude than speed density. These systems can be tuned to run well, but they will not automatically compensate for elevation change.

Someone mention Pro M. Pro M used to be MassFlow. MassFlow used a 1989-1993 Mustang A9L ECU. I have one on my Cobra. It is a decent system, but in my opinion some of the claims were BS. Before going to a quarter horse chip from Moats and software to tune it myself, I looked hard at the new Pro M. It looks like a great system to me, but I did not buy it. I would have had to replace too much and spend to much $$ to switch over to it. If I remember correctly the cost of a complete system (fuel pump to intake, inclusive - wire harness and distributor) is ~$3500 give or take. I would look hard at that.

Much appreciated on the FI information. My cobra has the ford ecu with wiring in the car even though I'm carb'd. I need to get under the passenger side and see what I have and how much is there. Thinking of possibly utilizing the oem stuff with after market intake. I am very aware of the aggressive cam/vacuum issue with FI. Looking into options on that as well.

[Ace23]

Why can't someone just make a root style blower like a TVS or a Whipple for a Windsor! I can't stand the sound of a whiny centrifugal supercharger and wouldn't want all the plumbing that comes with that or a turbo. A twinscrew blower would be awesome.....more torque than you could use and big hp in the upper Rpms. I bet you could run pretty low boost and makes gobs of power with a 408/427

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Ace23

Why can't someone just make a root style blower like a TVS or a Whipple for a Windsor! I can't stand the sound of a whiny centrifugal supercharger and wouldn't want all the plumbing that comes with that or a turbo. A twinscrew blower would be awesome.....more torque than you could use and big hp in the upper Rpms. I bet you could run pretty low boost and makes gobs of power with a 408/427

Try Dyers (Street Strip Roots Supercharger Kits and Blower Repair 471, 671, 871) - they have a kit for a 302W that works on a 351W with intake adapters from Price Motorsport (AP-01 and AP-04).

Holley / Weiand blowers (https://www.holley.com/products/supe.../supercharger/) would also work with the same adapters.

Couple either setup with a FiTech 'self-tuning' EFI 'power adder' system (single or dual quad) and you're good to go.
http://www.fitechefi.com/default.asp.pg-Products

[olddog]

PhotoPost Classifieds - Shelby GT 350 Paxton supercharger 289 - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

Just saw this in the For Sale section of this site. If interested, I would suggest pricing a new system to find out how much you would be saving. Then ask yourself, is that worth the risk and giving up a warranty?

Without a cooler you cannot push high boost levels.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by olddog

Without a cooler you cannot push high boost levels.

Water injection is an alternative:

Water Alcohol Methanol Ethanol Injection Systems - Articles - News & Updates - New Billet Aluminum Holley 4150 Water Injection Carburetor Plates

Just one of many high pressure systems.

Gary

[Cobrat24]

Just a heads up, thanks for all the advice and suggestions. My mech picked up the cobra, it goes in today for dyno before he work begins. We wanna see what it puts down at my elevation verses the elevation from where I picked it up. I'll keep you guys posted on the numbers. I'm anticipating a low hp/tq number.

I think the item I'm most excited to see is the exhaust build. My guy will be fabricating my headers and is working with Borla for the custom side pipe fit. Goal is 3.5 inch pipes into the side pipes. He hasn't disclosed the heads or cam combo but he's matching the flow rate, which is why he is changing the exhaust. I can't wait to see this setup. I will post pictures as they come along.


Came to terms with using what I have. And working on a different build down the road when I can really afford the bigger motor.

[Cobrat24]

Well just got the results of the Dyno..

As usual a humbling experience. 243hp/253tq. So anything being done to this will see big gains. There's our starting point.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Cobrat24

Well just got the results of the Dyno..

As usual a humbling experience. 243hp/253tq. So anything being done to this will see big gains. There's our starting point.

Dang, I think my daughter's Camry has more than that. Well, on the bright side, you have nowhere to go but up.

[Bernica]

So, assuming 20 percent loss in the drivetrain you are just over 300hp at the crank?
You have work to do!

[Cobrat24]

Yeah needless to say the guy I bought it from last summer was claiming 400hp. I knew it was less when I drove it but not this low.. Lol

[Bernica]

Dig deep!
Keep the kids in public schools and make sure they get scholarships.
Top Ramen is a good food source and use the fireplace and not the heater.
All in kidding.

[cycleguy55]

Best guess: 288 FWHP, 299 FW torque. Wheel Horsepower to Crankshaft Horsepower Guestimator

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Dig deep!
Keep the kids...

Naaaah, if they're young enough, I think you can sell them on ebay.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Best guess: 288 FWHP, 299 FW torque. Wheel Horsepower to Crankshaft Horsepower Guestimator

Well that's sad!
Not sure a supercharger or blower or whatever can bring you out of that!
Pull it, sell it and put what you want in there with your budget.
Just my 2c

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Naaaah, if they're young enough, I think you can sell them on ebay.

Yup, you can alway make more.

[Cobrat24]

My mech is already getting into the motor. We will be waking it up! Stay tuned for pics and new dyno when finished. We will be using the existing motor.

[Phill Pollard]

Originally Posted by olddog

Be warned that Ford started with Speed Density. It uses a MAP sensor in the manifold to estimate what the air flow into the engine is at a given throttle position. It does not work well with big cams, as the vacuum can be lower at idle than it is at off idle with such a cam. Second it does not automatically adjust for altitude changes. When you turn the key on the ECU saves the MAP sensor reading and assumes that is the atmospheric pressure. It does not update again until you turn the engine off and restart. So if you drive 4000 feet up a mountain, its no better than a carb, however turning the engine off/on is much easier than changing jets.

Olddog,

Your statement isn't entirely true. You were good up until you gave the 4000 feet comment.

Speed Density systems actually DO compensate for altitude on the fly without having to turn the key on/engine off (KOEO). They do it by sensing the manifold pressure (via the MAP) every time it sees WOT (via the TPS or Full Throttle switch on a minimum function system).

So on your way up that 4000' mountain, every time you push the throttle to the floor the ECM sees atmospheric pressure (since man vac drops to 0"Hg) and notes it as BARO.

I have seen ONE instance where a customer drove his car over a very long distance with a *gradual* rise in elevation without ever having to floor the gas pedal and he got a CEL out of it. That's one instance in over 25 years of EEC work so it is rare.


Hope That Helps,

Phill Pollard

[Cobrat24]

Ok so got to see some of the parts coming in. So for starters I was able to see some of the exhaust material. Headers are off but I don't have any pictures of that yet as he hasn't started. But really glad we took these sidepipes off with a cat! The borla mufflers will be going in the engine compartment followed by the big side pipes.

[Cobrat24]

Here are the borla mufflers..