460 Windsor or move to a big block

[Ace23]

Seems kinda slow around here so I decided to post this in the small block section as it seems to generate more activity. Brent specified a new hydraulic camshaft for my current 427 Windsor and we plan to wait until late summer when the miserable driving weather sets in to peform the swap. Personally I think it will be a great upgrade as my current cam has some serious overlap for a street cam. I really enjoy the higher rpm power but it's pretty dead below 4000K. I am really looking forward to this cam swap but I'm always planning ahead.....spent some serious time in the office this year so far and I want to spend some money on things that allow me to enjoy life a bit more.

As a typical gearhead it is easy to get caught up in the more is better way of thinking but I can't help myself. Looking a bit down the road I know I will want more power. The 2 options I would be willing to look at would be going larger with my current Windsor platform or going to a 385 series. The least expensive route would be to modify my current Windsor platform and I think I could use everything I have but may need a cylinder head upgrade. My cylinder heads are Keith Craft Brodix Trax 1's but I don't know what CC they are....guessing 205 or 210. What type of power can you get out of a 460 size Windsor? I am ordering 3" exhaust for my car and I currently run a 750 QF with choke but would be willing to go to a non-choke version if needed. My only requirements are to run on 93 octane and be able to cruise at 2000-2200rpm or so and it would be great to be able to shift it between 6000-6500. The other option would be to just throw in a mild 385 and have some serious power at any RPM.....it's a 100% street car so the weight isn't going to keep me from winning at the Nurburgring. For the record the fastest Cobra I have driven is Pman's 445 Windsor setup making a bit over 600HP and right at 600TQ and pulling it close to 6500......that car is a beast so as my point of reference I think between 650-700HP and adequate torque would be enough to never want more. Let the flaming begin I want to hear about how plug changes are a bitc* big blocks get hot and I only need 350hp!

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Ace23

... Brent specified a new hydraulic camshaft for my current 427 Windsor ...

Take the rest of your questions to Brent, he can build you anything you want.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Take the rest of your questions to Brent, he can build you anything you want.

Good advice but I'm not starting an in depth build conversation with Brent until I'm ready to give him some money. I'm sure Brent has plenty of paying customers to deal with right now. This is just a fun public thread for all that have an opinion. You are correct in that as the builder he probably has an idea of exactly what the results would will be and will chime in if he wants.

[Dimis]

Keep the small block, and have it rebuilt to your liking.

While a SPF can take a 385 series BBF, It wouldn't be my personal choice, the weight for mine would detract from what I like in the drive, plus it sounds like you already have a good head start with your current SBF. Further, a SBF can be made to produce more than enough power for a cobra, so the 385 BBF, in my mind, would be like a bazooka to swat a fly.

The more cubes you build, the better the chance it will be able to give you high power while still allowing some street-ability. So 445 or sure why not 460 if you're that way inclined.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Keep the small block, and have it rebuilt to your liking.

While a SPF can take a 385 series BBF, It wouldn't be my personal choice, the weight for mine would detract from what I like in the drive, plus it sounds like you already have a good head start with your current SBF. Further, a SBF can be made to produce more than enough power for a cobra, so the 385 BBF, in my mind, would be like a bazooka to swat a fly.

The more cubes you build, the better the chance it will be able to give you high power while still allowing some street-ability. So 445 or sure why not 460 if you're that way inclined.

That's not too far from what I think the overall consensus will be. The big block sounds fun and probably would be but it would surely be more expensive...replacing headers, clutch and all the misc stuff that comes with it. I currently run 17" wheels and I'm sure you would have to go to a drag radial to stand a chance of getting any traction. It's fun to think about it but there is a lot of drivetrain considerations that would need to be thought out. In going to go out on a limb and guess a bit under 650hp and 650tq is probably the max a street able 460 Windsor may be capable of before you start getting into some serious $$

[750hp]

Your combo must be a fair way off being optimised (or is a mismatch of parts) if your 427 cube motor is lazy below 4000rpm.

A legit 650 to 700hp out of a single carb, aspirated, pump gas small block will need something much more serious than a hydraulic cam combo.

Buying new crank, rods, pistons and heads to get an extra 30ish cubes? Doesn't sound like good value. I'd sell it complete and put a big block in there. Solid roller P51 headed 557ish cube motor and you're in the high 700s without raising a sweat

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Ace23

.....spent some serious time in the office this year so far and I want to spend some money on things that allow me to enjoy life a bit more.

If you're comfortable dropping, roughly, twenty grand, then have Brent build you a customized FE to your specs and you will never look back.

[joey4420]

Nothing beats torque in my opinion. Sure HP sells cars, but Torque gets you off the line and down the road in any gear.

I have only had my Cobra since Feb, and have to admit that I have been redoing a few things since then and haven't driven it much, but the SVO 460 in my car has the HP and the Torque to put a smile on anyone's face.

I haven't dino'd it yet since I am working a few cooling issues and steering fixes to make sure I am happy with it. But from the build sheet that came with the car I would guess Mid 500's for HP and Torque and being that my West Coast Cobra is heavier than most I can only imagine what it would do in a car that is 500 lbs lighter.

[jacobsed]

big block all the way

You NEVER hear anyone say "Man...I wish I had put a small block in"

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by 750hp

Your combo must be a fair way off being optimised (or is a mismatch of parts) if your 427 cube motor is lazy below 4000rpm.

A legit 650 to 700hp out of a single carb, aspirated, pump gas small block will need something much more serious than a hydraulic cam combo.

Buying new crank, rods, pistons and heads to get an extra 30ish cubes? Doesn't sound like good value. I'd sell it complete and put a big block in there. Solid roller P51 headed 557ish cube motor and you're in the high 700s without raising a sweat

No the motor was just setup for higher RPM and it doesn't peak until 6900. Combination of a big cam and 3.31 rear gearing makes for a pretty lazy combo. The solid roller is out since this is a street car. I think hydraulic roller is more suited for me as the owner

Originally Posted by patrickt

If you're comfortable dropping, roughly, twenty grand, then have Brent build you a customized FE to your specs and you will never look back.

I don't know much about an FE except that it is what many of the purist like to run. I've been lead to believe the 385 platform will produce much more power per $. If don't care about being a purist what is the attraction to the FE.

Originally Posted by joey4420

Nothing beats torque in my opinion. Sure HP sells cars, but Torque gets you off the line and down the road in any gear.

I have only had my Cobra since Feb, and have to admit that I have been redoing a few things since then and haven't driven it much, but the SVO 460 in my car has the HP and the Torque to put a smile on anyone's face.

I haven't dino'd it yet since I am working a few cooling issues and steering fixes to make sure I am happy with it. But from the build sheet that came with the car I would guess Mid 500's for HP and Torque and being that my West Coast Cobra is heavier than most I can only imagine what it would do in a car that is 500 lbs lighter.

Thanks for the input. I haven't ever ridden in a car with a 385 so I have no comparison at this point.

Originally Posted by jacobsed

big block all the way

You NEVER hear anyone say "Man...I wish I had put a small block in"

What are you running?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Ace23

I don't know much about an FE except that it is what many of the purist like to run. I've been lead to believe the 385 platform will produce much more power per $. If don't care about being a purist what is the attraction to the FE.

Very little. But you owe it to yourself to look in to the issue. If, after doing so, you choose any other engine, you will indeed save a couple of nickels.

[jacobsed]

I'm running s 460 stroked to 514. Pretty much a flat 600hp and 600 ft/lb tq at street driving rpms. Freaking awesome.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Very little. But you owe it to yourself to look in to the issue. If, after doing so, you choose any other engine, you will indeed save a couple of nickels.

I will have to read up a bit more on the FE platform. I know Brent has a build log on one that he is currently doing so I will keep an eye on it.

Originally Posted by jacobsed

I'm running s 460 stroked to 514. Pretty much a flat 600hp and 600 ft/lb tq at street driving rpms. Freaking awesome.

Is that the Ford Motorsport crate 514 that you have? Sounds like a fun ride and I'm sure the power delivery is more linear than a 600HP / 600TQ small block.

[jacobsed]

It is that motor. At 10k miles it was freshened up with new street friendly internals. It didn't oil itself well cruising around as it is a drag and race motor by design and started making not great noises. It was new back in 2000. Maybe Ford is doing something different with it now.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by jacobsed

big block all the way

You NEVER hear anyone say "Man...I wish I had put a small block in"

Seeing how some of you would like to rehash this SB vs. BB debate, enjoy -

small block vs. big block in a cobra

Originally Posted by SPF2245

My .02, I got the chance to drive a big block...it's everything everyone said it was. Great sound, power fall off in the upper RPMs and too much low end power for the tires to stand a chance. I then drove a small block stroker and found the upper power band was more usable while the lower tq off idle allowed for more chance to put the power to the ground. End result, I've got a stroker small block. Is it the end all...no way, I could use another 50-75HP so 4th gear would be as exciting as the first three.

-Dan

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Unless you are buying an original you are getting a replica which takes advantage of many of the automotive advances through the years. Why not take advantage on engine technology and get a stroked 351 to 4??. Now you have big block performance plus the advantages of a lighter engine.

I have been in and heard both. Unless they are parked next to each other it is hard to dicern the big block. I also did not like the low ground clearance as a result of the big block bell housing. Just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Slick61

I've got a 427 Windsor stroker. Has the Dart aluminum block, so is very stout AND light weight. I think I get the best of both worlds... big block power (612 hp/615 tq) with small block weight (car weighs 2240 lbs). Am surprised no one has mentioned a few other advantages of the small block... has more room to "breathe" in the engine compartment & you have better accessability during maintenance/service.

Originally Posted by madmaxx

danc30,
I do not have anything right now although I am slated for a Roush 427. I did intentionally pass up on two SPF's with 460's that were substantially less cost. If I wanted a trunk engine I would buy a truck. If I wanted an engine that overheated on a regular basis I would get a BB, if I wanted to plow into every turn I would get a BB, if I wanted to scrape every speed bump I would get a BB.

I'll check back later to see if the tomatoes have started flying.

[blykins]

557 ci BBF.....as mentioned, P51 heads, hydraulic roller.....700 hp.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by jacobsed

It is that motor. At 10k miles it was freshened up with new street friendly internals. It didn't oil itself well cruising around as it is a drag and race motor by design and started making not great noises. It was new back in 2000. Maybe Ford is doing something different with it now.

I'm no motor builder so I am not speaking from experience but I've heard a good many stories of Ford Motorsport engine failures....a SPF coupe local to me had a 427 That just failed a few months back that was basically new. I'm sure Ford's volume is much higher than the 1 man shop but you sure hear avoid amount of failures. Glad to hear you have it freshened up and I'm sure it's a blast.

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Seeing how some of you would like to rehash this SB vs. BB debate, enjoy -

small block vs. big block in a cobra









I'll check back later to see if the tomatoes have started flying.

all these big blocker haters!

Originally Posted by blykins

557 ci BBF.....as mentioned, P51 heads, hydraulic roller.....700 hp.

Is that a pretty conservative 557 and how high can you spin it

[750hp]

Originally Posted by Ace23

Is that a pretty conservative 557 and how high can you spin it

Just trying to understand your thought process. If it's a mild and relatively low-maintenance combination that makes more power and torque than you wanted, why does it matter how high you can spin it?

Do you want high rpm capability, bulk streetable low rpm torque, good gas mileage, lightest possible weight, maximum horsepower, no maintenance, or a budget crate engine? Brent can incorporate a number of these things, but not all of them...

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by 750hp

Just trying to understand your thought process. If it's a mild and relatively low-maintenance combination that makes more power and torque than you wanted, why does it matter how high you can spin it?

Do you want high rpm capability, bulk streetable low rpm torque, good gas mileage, lightest possible weight, maximum horsepower, no maintenance, or a budget crate engine? Brent can incorporate a number of these things, but not all of them...

Agree.

700/557 = 1.25hp per cubic inch.

Sounds like a combo that would blow the tyres off, from anywhere in the rpm band.

Who cares about how high you can spin it?

Sure you could spend another 30k on it to spin to 9000 rpm and make 1000+hp but you won't get 150000 miles out of it.

It's all about compromise and making a suitable package for the intended usage.

[blykins]

It's hard to have your cake and eat it too. High rpms don't jive with streetability, ease of tuning, longevity, etc.

A big inch BBF would probably make that kind of horsepower on 87 octane at 6000 rpm.