460 Windsor or move to a big block

[Ace23]

Seems kinda slow around here so I decided to post this in the small block section as it seems to generate more activity. Brent specified a new hydraulic camshaft for my current 427 Windsor and we plan to wait until late summer when the miserable driving weather sets in to peform the swap. Personally I think it will be a great upgrade as my current cam has some serious overlap for a street cam. I really enjoy the higher rpm power but it's pretty dead below 4000K. I am really looking forward to this cam swap but I'm always planning ahead.....spent some serious time in the office this year so far and I want to spend some money on things that allow me to enjoy life a bit more.

As a typical gearhead it is easy to get caught up in the more is better way of thinking but I can't help myself. Looking a bit down the road I know I will want more power. The 2 options I would be willing to look at would be going larger with my current Windsor platform or going to a 385 series. The least expensive route would be to modify my current Windsor platform and I think I could use everything I have but may need a cylinder head upgrade. My cylinder heads are Keith Craft Brodix Trax 1's but I don't know what CC they are....guessing 205 or 210. What type of power can you get out of a 460 size Windsor? I am ordering 3" exhaust for my car and I currently run a 750 QF with choke but would be willing to go to a non-choke version if needed. My only requirements are to run on 93 octane and be able to cruise at 2000-2200rpm or so and it would be great to be able to shift it between 6000-6500. The other option would be to just throw in a mild 385 and have some serious power at any RPM.....it's a 100% street car so the weight isn't going to keep me from winning at the Nurburgring. For the record the fastest Cobra I have driven is Pman's 445 Windsor setup making a bit over 600HP and right at 600TQ and pulling it close to 6500......that car is a beast so as my point of reference I think between 650-700HP and adequate torque would be enough to never want more. Let the flaming begin I want to hear about how plug changes are a bitc* big blocks get hot and I only need 350hp!

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Ace23

... Brent specified a new hydraulic camshaft for my current 427 Windsor ...

Take the rest of your questions to Brent, he can build you anything you want.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Take the rest of your questions to Brent, he can build you anything you want.

Good advice but I'm not starting an in depth build conversation with Brent until I'm ready to give him some money. I'm sure Brent has plenty of paying customers to deal with right now. This is just a fun public thread for all that have an opinion. You are correct in that as the builder he probably has an idea of exactly what the results would will be and will chime in if he wants.

[Dimis]

Keep the small block, and have it rebuilt to your liking.

While a SPF can take a 385 series BBF, It wouldn't be my personal choice, the weight for mine would detract from what I like in the drive, plus it sounds like you already have a good head start with your current SBF. Further, a SBF can be made to produce more than enough power for a cobra, so the 385 BBF, in my mind, would be like a bazooka to swat a fly.

The more cubes you build, the better the chance it will be able to give you high power while still allowing some street-ability. So 445 or sure why not 460 if you're that way inclined.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Keep the small block, and have it rebuilt to your liking.

While a SPF can take a 385 series BBF, It wouldn't be my personal choice, the weight for mine would detract from what I like in the drive, plus it sounds like you already have a good head start with your current SBF. Further, a SBF can be made to produce more than enough power for a cobra, so the 385 BBF, in my mind, would be like a bazooka to swat a fly.

The more cubes you build, the better the chance it will be able to give you high power while still allowing some street-ability. So 445 or sure why not 460 if you're that way inclined.

That's not too far from what I think the overall consensus will be. The big block sounds fun and probably would be but it would surely be more expensive...replacing headers, clutch and all the misc stuff that comes with it. I currently run 17" wheels and I'm sure you would have to go to a drag radial to stand a chance of getting any traction. It's fun to think about it but there is a lot of drivetrain considerations that would need to be thought out. In going to go out on a limb and guess a bit under 650hp and 650tq is probably the max a street able 460 Windsor may be capable of before you start getting into some serious $$

[750hp]

Your combo must be a fair way off being optimised (or is a mismatch of parts) if your 427 cube motor is lazy below 4000rpm.

A legit 650 to 700hp out of a single carb, aspirated, pump gas small block will need something much more serious than a hydraulic cam combo.

Buying new crank, rods, pistons and heads to get an extra 30ish cubes? Doesn't sound like good value. I'd sell it complete and put a big block in there. Solid roller P51 headed 557ish cube motor and you're in the high 700s without raising a sweat

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Ace23

.....spent some serious time in the office this year so far and I want to spend some money on things that allow me to enjoy life a bit more.

If you're comfortable dropping, roughly, twenty grand, then have Brent build you a customized FE to your specs and you will never look back.

[joey4420]

Nothing beats torque in my opinion. Sure HP sells cars, but Torque gets you off the line and down the road in any gear.

I have only had my Cobra since Feb, and have to admit that I have been redoing a few things since then and haven't driven it much, but the SVO 460 in my car has the HP and the Torque to put a smile on anyone's face.

I haven't dino'd it yet since I am working a few cooling issues and steering fixes to make sure I am happy with it. But from the build sheet that came with the car I would guess Mid 500's for HP and Torque and being that my West Coast Cobra is heavier than most I can only imagine what it would do in a car that is 500 lbs lighter.

[jacobsed]

big block all the way

You NEVER hear anyone say "Man...I wish I had put a small block in"

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by 750hp

Your combo must be a fair way off being optimised (or is a mismatch of parts) if your 427 cube motor is lazy below 4000rpm.

A legit 650 to 700hp out of a single carb, aspirated, pump gas small block will need something much more serious than a hydraulic cam combo.

Buying new crank, rods, pistons and heads to get an extra 30ish cubes? Doesn't sound like good value. I'd sell it complete and put a big block in there. Solid roller P51 headed 557ish cube motor and you're in the high 700s without raising a sweat

No the motor was just setup for higher RPM and it doesn't peak until 6900. Combination of a big cam and 3.31 rear gearing makes for a pretty lazy combo. The solid roller is out since this is a street car. I think hydraulic roller is more suited for me as the owner

Originally Posted by patrickt

If you're comfortable dropping, roughly, twenty grand, then have Brent build you a customized FE to your specs and you will never look back.

I don't know much about an FE except that it is what many of the purist like to run. I've been lead to believe the 385 platform will produce much more power per $. If don't care about being a purist what is the attraction to the FE.

Originally Posted by joey4420

Nothing beats torque in my opinion. Sure HP sells cars, but Torque gets you off the line and down the road in any gear.

I have only had my Cobra since Feb, and have to admit that I have been redoing a few things since then and haven't driven it much, but the SVO 460 in my car has the HP and the Torque to put a smile on anyone's face.

I haven't dino'd it yet since I am working a few cooling issues and steering fixes to make sure I am happy with it. But from the build sheet that came with the car I would guess Mid 500's for HP and Torque and being that my West Coast Cobra is heavier than most I can only imagine what it would do in a car that is 500 lbs lighter.

Thanks for the input. I haven't ever ridden in a car with a 385 so I have no comparison at this point.

Originally Posted by jacobsed

big block all the way

You NEVER hear anyone say "Man...I wish I had put a small block in"

What are you running?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Ace23

I don't know much about an FE except that it is what many of the purist like to run. I've been lead to believe the 385 platform will produce much more power per $. If don't care about being a purist what is the attraction to the FE.

Very little. But you owe it to yourself to look in to the issue. If, after doing so, you choose any other engine, you will indeed save a couple of nickels.

[jacobsed]

I'm running s 460 stroked to 514. Pretty much a flat 600hp and 600 ft/lb tq at street driving rpms. Freaking awesome.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by jacobsed

big block all the way

You NEVER hear anyone say "Man...I wish I had put a small block in"

Seeing how some of you would like to rehash this SB vs. BB debate, enjoy -

small block vs. big block in a cobra

Originally Posted by SPF2245

My .02, I got the chance to drive a big block...it's everything everyone said it was. Great sound, power fall off in the upper RPMs and too much low end power for the tires to stand a chance. I then drove a small block stroker and found the upper power band was more usable while the lower tq off idle allowed for more chance to put the power to the ground. End result, I've got a stroker small block. Is it the end all...no way, I could use another 50-75HP so 4th gear would be as exciting as the first three.

-Dan

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Unless you are buying an original you are getting a replica which takes advantage of many of the automotive advances through the years. Why not take advantage on engine technology and get a stroked 351 to 4??. Now you have big block performance plus the advantages of a lighter engine.

I have been in and heard both. Unless they are parked next to each other it is hard to dicern the big block. I also did not like the low ground clearance as a result of the big block bell housing. Just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Slick61

I've got a 427 Windsor stroker. Has the Dart aluminum block, so is very stout AND light weight. I think I get the best of both worlds... big block power (612 hp/615 tq) with small block weight (car weighs 2240 lbs). Am surprised no one has mentioned a few other advantages of the small block... has more room to "breathe" in the engine compartment & you have better accessability during maintenance/service.

Originally Posted by madmaxx

danc30,
I do not have anything right now although I am slated for a Roush 427. I did intentionally pass up on two SPF's with 460's that were substantially less cost. If I wanted a trunk engine I would buy a truck. If I wanted an engine that overheated on a regular basis I would get a BB, if I wanted to plow into every turn I would get a BB, if I wanted to scrape every speed bump I would get a BB.

I'll check back later to see if the tomatoes have started flying.

[blykins]

557 ci BBF.....as mentioned, P51 heads, hydraulic roller.....700 hp.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by jacobsed

It is that motor. At 10k miles it was freshened up with new street friendly internals. It didn't oil itself well cruising around as it is a drag and race motor by design and started making not great noises. It was new back in 2000. Maybe Ford is doing something different with it now.

I'm no motor builder so I am not speaking from experience but I've heard a good many stories of Ford Motorsport engine failures....a SPF coupe local to me had a 427 That just failed a few months back that was basically new. I'm sure Ford's volume is much higher than the 1 man shop but you sure hear avoid amount of failures. Glad to hear you have it freshened up and I'm sure it's a blast.

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Seeing how some of you would like to rehash this SB vs. BB debate, enjoy -

small block vs. big block in a cobra









I'll check back later to see if the tomatoes have started flying.

all these big blocker haters!

Originally Posted by blykins

557 ci BBF.....as mentioned, P51 heads, hydraulic roller.....700 hp.

Is that a pretty conservative 557 and how high can you spin it

[brainsboy]

Having just built a 460 Windsor, I can tell you its not a saving money idea, even if you already have heads. Its just one of those things that's its easier said than done. There are a lot of issues and problems that most people don't realize and they all cost boat loads of money to address. Very few people have even posted on some of these problems so let me give an example, first is that when you put a 4.250 stroke into a Windsor your rods are going to hit the cam lobes. This means you will never be able to run a typical off the shelf camshaft in your motor. If your building a chevy, this is not a problem because chevys always have this problem, so every cam company carries cam cores with smaller diameters. Fords however never have this type of issue, this is important because for this reason no one carries smaller diameter cam cores for the ford small blocks. This now means your only choice is to have a billet cam cut from a solid chunk of steel. Don't confuse this with having a custom cam cut from a core, your now getting a billet custom cam. Lets say you throw down 800$ plus, on a nice new billet cam, which will be around a .300" smaller diameter than stock ford cams just to start with. Life is great now, but you now have an interference motor between the cam and rods, this is because a ford stock cam is somewhere around 1.4" diameter, so now your going to end up with a billet custom ground cam say around a max of 1.100", this is just enough to clear lobes against the rods, this means you have interference points when the motor is not in perfect timing. If you jump a tooth or break a timing chain then your also breaking internal engine parts, rods, cam, block. Also how much smaller of a cam do you need to clear rods? 1.100"? 1.000" .900" How do you tell what you need?, how small can you go without cam deflection? Are you thinking about smaller rods yet? How much smaller than 2.1" chevy journals are you going to run? How much smaller on a crank journals can you grind before heat treating is gone? Do you get a billet crank with Honda journals? Are the Honda rods strong enough? Don't expect the cam company tell you what you need, or expect a refund when the new billet cam still doesn't clear. Im not saying all this cant be done, and Im not trying to say don't do it, I just want to get you to think about the problems and time that is spent on this type of project. The list go's on for other problems. You can have a builder do all the work for you, but these problems are still there, you just wont be the one choosing how to address the problems, in some cases you wont even be told about them until you go to change cams and the motor wont turn over. Just something to think about

[Pman1961]

I agree with bainsboy comments as I have experienced the same issues in a 434 sbc.

A lower gear if you like your existing engine combo or the proposed cam change with the current gearing. Either way would be a noticeable improvement. Ahhh....decisions

[blykins]

Originally Posted by brainsboy

Having just built a 460 Windsor, I can tell you its not a saving money idea, even if you already have heads. Its just one of those things that's its easier said than done. There are a lot of issues and problems that most people don't realize and they all cost boat loads of money to address. Very few people have even posted on some of these problems so let me give an example, first is that when you put a 4.250 stroke into a Windsor your rods are going to hit the cam lobes. This means you will never be able to run a typical off the shelf camshaft in your motor. If your building a chevy, this is not a problem because chevys always have this problem, so every cam company carries cam cores with smaller diameters. Fords however never have this type of issue, this is important because for this reason no one carries smaller diameter cam cores for the ford small blocks. This now means your only choice is to have a billet cam cut from a solid chunk of steel. Don't confuse this with having a custom cam cut from a core, your now getting a billet custom cam. Lets say you throw down 800$ plus, on a nice new billet cam, which will be around a .300" smaller diameter than stock ford cams just to start with. Life is great now, but you now have an interference motor between the cam and rods, this is because a ford stock cam is somewhere around 1.4" diameter, so now your going to end up with a billet custom ground cam say around a max of 1.100", this is just enough to clear lobes against the rods, this means you have interference points when the motor is not in perfect timing. If you jump a tooth or break a timing chain then your also breaking internal engine parts, rods, cam, block. Also how much smaller of a cam do you need to clear rods? 1.100"? 1.000" .900" How do you tell what you need?, how small can you go without cam deflection? Are you thinking about smaller rods yet? How much smaller than 2.1" chevy journals are you going to run? How much smaller on a crank journals can you grind before heat treating is gone? Do you get a billet crank with Honda journals? Are the Honda rods strong enough? Don't expect the cam company tell you what you need, or expect a refund when the new billet cam still doesn't clear. Im not saying all this cant be done, and Im not trying to say don't do it, I just want to get you to think about the problems and time that is spent on this type of project. The list go's on for other problems. You can have a builder do all the work for you, but these problems are still there, you just wont be the one choosing how to address the problems, in some cases you wont even be told about them until you go to change cams and the motor wont turn over. Just something to think about

$800? Who in the world took you for $800?

I sell completely custom billet steel small base circle cams with comp lobes for $350.

If you wanted a billet steel 55mm cam, they are less than $475.

[Three Peaks]

I have a 392 stroker on a stock 74 Windsor block and a Comp Cams XE 294 cam. 35-254-4 - Xtreme Energy

From the person I bought the cam from he had it in just about an identical engine set up as mine and had it dynoed at around 515 hp. I just finished the car a couple months ago and it is a beast to drive, but it also doesn't like to drive much below about 1800 rpm. I have 3.27 rear gears and it is pretty slow to get going in 1st gear sometimes unless I lay into it, then it is crazy. I will be considering changing out to 3.55 or 3.73 gears one of these days but I can live with it at the moment as I can break the rears loose in 4th gear without trying too hard. I'm sure it helps my car only weighs about 2,000 lbs.

If it were me, I would change out the cam to something with a better low end and mid range and change the rear gears to around 3.73 or so. It will feel like a completely different car. I don't think I would worry too much about the exhaust. I run 1 7/8" headers and it sounds and runs great after warming up- don't have a choke on my Holley 750 dp.
A few suspension tweeks may also make the car a bit more enjoyable to drive but I would try the cam/rear gears first and see where you end up. You can just about guarantee Brent can help you out with some solid advice when the time comes. I've always been impressed by his no-nonsense approach to engine building and customer service.

Bob

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by brainsboy

Having just built a 460 Windsor, I can tell you its not a saving money idea, even if you already have heads. Its just one of those things that's its easier said than done. There are a lot of issues and problems that most people don't realize and they all cost boat loads of money to address. Very few people have even posted on some of these problems so let me give an example, first is that when you put a 4.250 stroke into a Windsor your rods are going to hit the cam lobes. This means you will never be able to run a typical off the shelf camshaft in your motor. If your building a chevy, this is not a problem because chevys always have this problem, so every cam company carries cam cores with smaller diameters. Fords however never have this type of issue, this is important because for this reason no one carries smaller diameter cam cores for the ford small blocks. This now means your only choice is to have a billet cam cut from a solid chunk of steel. Don't confuse this with having a custom cam cut from a core, your now getting a billet custom cam. Lets say you throw down 800$ plus, on a nice new billet cam, which will be around a .300" smaller diameter than stock ford cams just to start with. Life is great now, but you now have an interference motor between the cam and rods, this is because a ford stock cam is somewhere around 1.4" diameter, so now your going to end up with a billet custom ground cam say around a max of 1.100", this is just enough to clear lobes against the rods, this means you have interference points when the motor is not in perfect timing. If you jump a tooth or break a timing chain then your also breaking internal engine parts, rods, cam, block. Also how much smaller of a cam do you need to clear rods? 1.100"? 1.000" .900" How do you tell what you need?, how small can you go without cam deflection? Are you thinking about smaller rods yet? How much smaller than 2.1" chevy journals are you going to run? How much smaller on a crank journals can you grind before heat treating is gone? Do you get a billet crank with Honda journals? Are the Honda rods strong enough? Don't expect the cam company tell you what you need, or expect a refund when the new billet cam still doesn't clear. Im not saying all this cant be done, and Im not trying to say don't do it, I just want to get you to think about the problems and time that is spent on this type of project. The list go's on for other problems. You can have a builder do all the work for you, but these problems are still there, you just wont be the one choosing how to address the problems, in some cases you wont even be told about them until you go to change cams and the motor wont turn over. Just something to think about

Well that sounds like a can of worms so I have to ask.....is this what you found out during your 460 build or did you go into knowing all of this? I've only spoken to 2 builders about SBF 460 using my existing Dart block but I didn't get the feeling they were swayed in another direction. I had to come back and edit this to say I forgot to tell you congrats on such a sweet looking motor as I noticed all the CHI product. What is this going in and what type of power did you make. Tell us more about your build.

Originally Posted by Pman1961

I agree with bainsboy comments as I have experienced the same issues in a 434 sbc.

A lower gear if you like your existing engine combo or the proposed cam change with the current gearing. Either way would be a noticeable improvement. Ahhh....decisions

We will soon found out between my 60 hour weeks and your side jobs!

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

I have a 392 stroker on a stock 74 Windsor block and a Comp Cams XE 294 cam. 35-254-4 - Xtreme Energy

From the person I bought the cam from he had it in just about an identical engine set up as mine and had it dynoed at around 515 hp. I just finished the car a couple months ago and it is a beast to drive, but it also doesn't like to drive much below about 1800 rpm. I have 3.27 rear gears and it is pretty slow to get going in 1st gear sometimes unless I lay into it, then it is crazy. I will be considering changing out to 3.55 or 3.73 gears one of these days but I can live with it at the moment as I can break the rears loose in 4th gear without trying too hard. I'm sure it helps my car only weighs about 2,000 lbs.

If it were me, I would change out the cam to something with a better low end and mid range and change the rear gears to around 3.73 or so. It will feel like a completely different car. I don't think I would worry too much about the exhaust. I run 1 7/8" headers and it sounds and runs great after warming up- don't have a choke on my Holley 750 dp.
A few suspension tweeks may also make the car a bit more enjoyable to drive but I would try the cam/rear gears first and see where you end up. You can just about guarantee Brent can help you out with some solid advice when the time comes. I've always been impressed by his no-nonsense approach to engine building and customer service.

Bob

I already have the cam that Brent specified so the plan is to change it and see how it goes.....if I still want more then gears would be next on the list. I'm expect we will see positive results from the cam alone. I've looked at the gearing calculator and with my TKO-600 with the .82 5th it doesn't really give a good outcome for interstate speeds.....looks like it will keep me about 2000rpm in 5th at 50mph and close to 3000rpm for 70mph which would suck.