Stroker Windsor build for HM-1023

[Hoodabest]

Yes folks, I said it!! I made the decision to go the small block route for my Hurricane. I went out and looked at the stack of parts Larry was kind enough to include in the sale and decided I'd be a fool to pass on this option. Next was finding a machinist who could meet my particular requirements. Torque plates, blast 'n bake, install 4 bolt main caps and line bore, and the rest. Most of my experience thus far has been building harley pan and shovelheads, a few truck and dozer diesels, and stock type v8s over the years. That makes this my first true high performance v8 build.

Anything special I need to make sure of in block prep?

I found a machinist only a mile from my house, he can meet my needs, great guy too.

Based on what I've seen here, I'm thinking a Brent Lykins cam.

List of what I have so far to follow.

[Hoodabest]

I need to figure out how to post pictures here. Ever since photobucket decided to screw the world of forum picture posting, I've needed to figure out the new way. Input appreciated.

[Hoodabest]

Heres what I have on hand so far :

STD bore block, 351w D1xx part number.

Billet 4 bolt main caps, US made leaded steel.

OEM timing cover.

Edelbrock Victor Jr. Heads, new in box, pn 77189

Price dual quad manifold with a pair of Holleys and linkage.

Pair of Shelby FE style cast valve covers, polished pent-roof but made to fit windsor heads.

Lunati hydraulic roller lifters

Comp roller rockers

Comp pushrods

Billet pulleys

MSD distributor


Heres what I need :

Complete rotating assembly, I'm on the fence here between a SCAT 4.1 forged setup complete, or an Eagle 4.17 crank with manley rods. I dont have enough knowledge or experience yet to make an informed decision. What I do know is I'm a lot less afraid of high piston speed than most. My old shovelhead has 4-5/8" stroke and hits the 6800 rpm rev limiter on the regular. Proper building of well matched parts works. Any recommendations from experience needed.

Oil pan. Size, front or rear sump, part number anyone??

Oil pump/pickup.

Timing set.

Cam? As stated earlier, I'm thinking Mr. Lykins could be the guy. I need recommendations as far as comp ratio/cam, from actual owners, and yes, I'll do my due diligence and look at past threads. Just looking for a new conversation on an old subject. I'd like to see 500-600 hp. If for nothing else than to say I've owned and operated such a beast just once. A nasty idle and a little cantankerous at low speed is expected, so long as I'm able to get stuck in the occasional traffic jam without a meltdown. Pump gas would be nice, but if 5 gal. Of 114 octane leaded per 15 gallon tank is needed, I'd go there grudgingly. Better yet would be to be able to switch between the two based on the days expected activities.

Balancer

Flywheel

Water pump

Hardware, main and head studs/bolts, manifold bolts, flywheel bolts, etc

Gaskets.

That's about all I can think of now. Feel free to chime in if you have any ideas.

Also, if you have any of these parts available in good or better shape, please contact me, I will appreciate it.

[LMH]

You really wouldn't need four bolt main caps in my opinion, though that block can be drilled for them. That's was my original idea and one of the reasons I bought that block.
After talking to Gordon Levy about stroking it, he said the four bolt mains weren't really needed unless I planned on racing the car. He felt like they were a waste of money for a street engine.
Larry

[Dwight]

I agreed with LMH, you don't need four bolt mains unless you are racing.



video of a Keith Craft 408 in a B&B 530 fwhp and 537 fwtq.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txBXSZ8sph0

[Ace23]

Brent selected a cam for my 427 Windsor rebuild....he did an excellent job and it sounds intense.

[Hoodabest]

Originally Posted by Dwight

I agreed with LMH, you don't need four bolt mains unless you are racing.



video of a Keith Craft 408 in a B&B 530 fwhp and 537 fwtq.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txBXSZ8sph0

I remember reading long ago that stock caps/bolts were totally fine to 550+ hp, and later that if you push to the point that 4 bolt caps are needed, a factory block itself becomes the weak link. I do not have any knowledge whatsoever to disagree, but I DO have a set of billet caps on hand (donated by a good friend), and the block IS going out for machining, so, I guess that unless it would actually hurt the bottom end, I'll have them installed as thanks to an old friend.

Any opinions on studs vs bolts? Wondering if heads or mains should or shouldn't.

[Gaz64]

I personally don't like line boring if it can be avoided.
Previous main bearing wear will tell if the block is straight.
If the tunnels need to line bored, skim the caps, and take the ABSOLUTE minimum from the block saddle.
The more the crank is lifted up in the block, the more off-centre the crank runs in the front and rear seals. You also need to source a "tunnel-bored" chainset etc.

Gary

[olddog]

More than one builder had problems with crankshaft braking from one of those suppliers

[Hoodabest]

Originally Posted by olddog

More than one builder had problems with crankshaft braking from one of those suppliers

So, can I surmise that as a suggestion to go the 408 route? If so, then that would mean that the guys selling 4.170" stroke cranks are still having issues. I was maybe hoping that had been resolved, but unless I hear otherwise, I'll not be gambling my hard earned $$ just to be able to say "yeah, its a 427". Tempting as the idea is, my disposable income isn't as disposable as it once was !

In other news, my 4 bolt main caps arrived. In a roundabout way, these were gifted to me (now that I think about it, more like a trade), whatever. Anyway, as a 25 year veteran of the machining trade, I'm impressed by the workmanship these parts show. Ground stock, all CNC machined, properly deburred, then oxide coated. They even included a set of outer bolts and washers. Certainly better than stock.

Still looking for oil pan suggestions. Anyone

Crank failure info would be greatly appreciated, as would info on how to post pictures.

[Dwight]

The only cranks I've heard of breaking was the Eagle FE cranks. Two that I know of. Keith Craft stopped installing them and used Scat for the FE but still used the Eagle cranks on the 351W stroker.

You need to call Craft Performance and ask. They will tell you the true. You can also call Brent Lykins.

Any major engine builder should tell you if they are having problems with breaking cranks because they would be liable for the repairs.

Dwight

[olddog]

I typed the message on my cell phone, which is not as easy for me, but my desk top was dead at the time. So I didn't elaborate.

My point was, be careful what parts you buy for a build. Not all parts are equal. I do think it may have only been FE cranks that actually broke in large numbers, but I wouldn't trust their products period, but that's me.

I do not state the company name because I do not trust my memory of which is which.

A good crank is a good crank the stroke does not matter and the engine family does not matter. Just be careful the parts you buy are all good parts.

My son purchased a camshaft from an online company for a dirt track SB Chevy. It arrived broken in two pieces. The box was undamaged. They sent him a new cam. It looked good. First race it broke at exactly the same spot the first cam was broken. Only this time is destroyed the entire engine, other than a few odd parts here and there. The company was happy to send him another cam, but they would not pay for the damage they caused. So he accepted the new cam and hung it on his garage wall to remind himself never to buy a cheap cam again.

[Three Peaks]

Oil pan will be dictated by your chassis- meaning which sump you need- front or rear. I would go with a Canton road race pan with baffles to keep the oil under the pump when in tight or long corners. A standard flow oil pump seems to be quite sufficient for small block Fords- not as much wear on the drive shaft since it also drives the distributor.

Keep an eye on what rotation your water pump needs to turn. Depending on what front dress you end up with, your water pump needs to turn accordingly- standard (clockwise) or reverse rotation.

As far as cranks, I researched this for quite a while before building my 393 stroker and ended up with a Scat cast crank. From everything I read, a forged crank just isn't needed unless you are pushing 700+ horsepower and/or racing the engine on regular basis. I built the 393 because it is the easiest and cheapest of the strokers to build and the hp potential is equal to the 408's and 427's without the issues of rod angles and piston skirt clearance. You can use stock 351W rods ( had mine reconditioned) and 302 pistons with a 20CC dish with those heads- same heads I'm running. Should give you around 10.5:1 CR and run fine on pump gas. With the proper cam, you'll have 500-525 pretty easy- mine runs around 515 or a bit more and sounds incredible.

Sounds like you have most of the other parts needed. With the 4 bolt mains, I wouldn't worry about studs or bolts- do what is easiest and cheapest - it will all work out. Make sure to have your fly wheel, clutch, and rotating parts available to go to the machinist for balancing all in one trip. Saves messing with it later and if you have your rotating assembly available, your machinist can check deck heights, etc.... while machining and adjust accordingly. I spec'd 0 deck height for my build so he shaved a couple .001's off my deck to accomodate my set up and everything went together perfectly.

Get a good timing chain. The block I bought came with a Cloyes timing chain so I went ahead and used it. Big mistake- by time I had the engine started and timed, it was already stretched and the gears were trash. Lucky, the guy I bought my cam from sent me a new Comp Cams timing chain set with everything else and it has been perfect. However, taking the front of the engine apart in the car after install wasn't really a lot of fun...


Have fun with the build.

Bob

[Hoodabest]

I found a machinist in town who has 30+ years of racing experience, AND torque plates . For starters, a trip thru the oven, blast cabinet, and bath. Followed by magniflux, measure and inspect, then its off to the races. I'm going ahead with the 4 bolt caps, and a complete Scat forged rotating assembly. We discussed this at the engine shop and agreed that there's nothing wrong with a little over-building here.

So now that I have the big stuff figured out, next comes the chore of sourcing all the little crap that it takes to complete the engine. Bolts, dowels, water pump, accessory drive, etc. I'm hoping some of you folks can help me out with recommendations and part numbers / sources.

- oil pan. Im thinkung a Canton baffled pan front sump. Suggestions anyone???

- windage tray. Canton again. Is anyone using a windage tray? Is one necessary or beneficial? Which one?

- Oil pump

- Oil pump pickup. Again, ideas??

More is certain to follow.

Thanks, Chris

[120mm]

Have you looked at Aviaid oil pans? I've heard good things about them.

Wet Sump Road Race Oil Pans (SBF 289/302 & 351W) at Aviaid | Page 2 of 3

Windage trays are there to manage oil impingement on the rotating mass. In other words, all that oil and foam in a wet sump actually induce drag on the rotating mass, and the windage pan reduces that. Only really has benefit at high speeds, or high lateral forces. Are you planning to race it? If so, I'd also suggest looking into an Accusump as well.

BTW, congrats on scoring the Legacy Hurricane. Don't be afraid to reach out to the current company for support if you need it.

[Hoodabest]

Originally Posted by 120mm

Have you looked at Aviaid oil pans? I've heard good things about them.

Wet Sump Road Race Oil Pans (SBF 289/302 & 351W) at Aviaid | Page 2 of 3

Windage trays are there to manage oil impingement on the rotating mass. In other words, all that oil and foam in a wet sump actually induce drag on the rotating mass, and the windage pan reduces that. Only really has benefit at high speeds, or high lateral forces. Are you planning to race it? If so, I'd also suggest looking into an Accusump as well.

BTW, congrats on scoring the Legacy Hurricane. Don't be afraid to reach out to the current company for support if you need it.

Thanks for the pointers. I looked at the Aviaid pans, compared them to what was available from Moroso and Canton, and opted for the canton 15-6805 with matching pickup and dipstick. I liked the built-in baffles and crankshaft scraper, plus a decent price. In all for today, I ordered in the following;

Canton 15-6805 pan

Canton 15-661 pickup tube assy

Canton 20-850 rigid dipstick assy

Melling 10833 oil pump w/shaft

Arp 154-5606 main stud kit

Arp 254-1902 oil pan stud kit

Arp 100-9910 ultra torque assmbly lube (threads only)

Ford racing (Fel-Pro) M6003A50 gasket set

About $925.00 for this mostly on amazon.

My torque wrenches go out for calibration tomorrow. I can't stress enough how important it is to have a set (in/lb, light ft/lb, and heavier ft/lb) of good, accurate torque wrenches in general, but especially for a project like this. I'll probably try to start a dedicated discussion on this down the road. That's it for now.

[MFE III]

You are correct that Hurricane's take a front sump pan. My Smeding crate motor came with the baffled Canton pan. I developed a small pin leak at one of the baffle welds on the bottom and am about to replace it. For what its worth, Smeding said they have moved away from Canton pans and are now installing Moroso pans. Here's a link comparing the two at Summit:
http://www.summitracing.com/compare
Aside from slight dimensional differences and dipstick on the opposite side, the crank scraper on the Canton pan appears to be the primary difference. Not sure how important that is. I'm leaning toward the Moroso pan for the difference in cost and many reviews on the Canton pans leaking like I have.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Hi,
The biggest problem I see is getting a proper steel gear on the msd dist for the roller cam. You see a fair number of engines destroyed by dist gears, don't ever run a bronze gear on the street, it is made for race engines that change it often.
Perry

[Hoodabest]

So, technology seems to reign supreme once again, for in a shade over 100 hours, ALL of the items ordered on this tablet, manned by your humble narrator, have arrived. Ahead of schedule, and intact. Go figure that they can get this done and still manage to explode a 1 lb can of popcorn salt in a way that will baffle me to the end of my days.

Someone pretty frickin' please post how to put up pictures sans photobucket.

[wolf k]

https://imgbb.com

I have been using this site, works similar to photo bucket. I did not bother opening an account, just use the Start Upload button.
Once uploaded, when prompted to select imbedded codes, select BBCode full linked. Copy and paste that to your post.