Oil "Use" Ford 427/535 Crate

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by blykins

I use Permatex thread sealant paste.

I've used the same - but my tube will last me a long time, while I suspect you're buying yours by the case.

[tortuga]

Originally Posted by tortuga

Anyone seen this occur with the Z304DA's?

Again before I start tearing into it with potentially no reason, does ford typically make these heads with rocker stud holes that go clear through to the ports? These are somewhat production heads, all made and machined pretty much the same way I would think?

Thanks
Steve H

[blykins]

I don't use those heads so I have no experience with them. On other brands, there are manufacturing tolerances involved, and yes, you can get some stud holes that go through and some that are blind.

I wouldn't tear into anything at this point. I would simply buy/rent/borrow a bore scope, shove it down the intake manifold, and see if you see oil anywhere.....in the runners, on the backs of the valve heads, running down the guides, etc.

[tortuga]

Originally Posted by blykins

I don't use those heads so I have no experience with them. On other brands, there are manufacturing tolerances involved, and yes, you can get some stud holes that go through and some that are blind.

I wouldn't tear into anything at this point. I would simply buy/rent/borrow a bore scope, shove it down the intake manifold, and see if you see oil anywhere.....in the runners, on the backs of the valve heads, running down the guides, etc.

I've got one but I've got to get new SW for it...pretty adept at a quick carb removal at which point I can look at all the intake ports. I can actually see two valves down the super Vic, but not the top of the ports.

Try to get after it during the thanksgiving break.

[Luce]

I have that engine and it drinks oil like a sailor. There were more than a few people who reported the problem to be loose valve guides and or oil seals.

Ford's answer is for you to pull it, crate it, then send it to them on your dime. Then they can say nothing is wrong, and ask for a shipping label for you to pay to ship it back and reinstall. I decided at $4 a quart, I'll buy a quart every 2 tanks and not worry about it.

[RET_COP]

Just remove the heads and have a competent machine shop fix them. You're going to gum up your engine with that much oil going through combustion. Just a summer of wicking rocker studs caused an ugly build up of sludge on the back of the intake valves. I pulled the heads and cleaned them up, fixed the stud leakage and had a clean running motor.

[tortuga]

Originally Posted by RET_COP

Just remove the heads and have a competent machine shop fix them. You're going to gum up your engine with that much oil going through combustion. Just a summer of wicking rocker studs caused an ugly build up of sludge on the back of the intake valves. I pulled the heads and cleaned them up, fixed the stud leakage and had a clean running motor.

Thinking compression and leak down to Eliminate rings (hopefully) then like you say have the heads gone through...if it's not leaking and the rings are good HAS to be heads...intake gaskets ARE tight.

[blykins]

A leak down and compression test won't show anything, unless something is BAD wrong like, a blown head gasket, piston missing half its crown, ring lands collapsed, etc.

The majority of these issues come from bad valve guides, bad valve seals, or intake gasket leaks. With the amount of mileage that you have, I'd be checking valve seals and guides, but you can easily do that with a scope. If the valve stems and heads of the valves don't show oil on them, then you know the problem is somewhere else.

[crawleyscobra]

I had the same oil issue with my Ford Racing M-6007-Z427FRT. I had an early version of the engine. After much research on multiple forums and contacting the Ford Racing support line. I did 2 things. First, I replaced the valve guides and seals and then removed the PCV and just went with filters. I have not had to add oil for three years. I check it every time I drive it. Granted I only drive it about 1000 miles a year, but the change was immediate.

[tortuga]

I pulled off a valve spring and verified the valve seals are good and the newer version.

The other potential source of oil consumption was the intake gaskets. I bought a new set of gaskets and pulled the intake.

Viola, the gaskets were ragged at the bottom and there was obviously oil getting past them!

All buttoned up now have to wait for the China wall sealant to dry.

Hope this solves the oil consumption.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by tortuga

I pulled off a valve spring and verified the valve seals are good and the newer version.

The other potential source of oil consumption was the intake gaskets. I bought a new set of gaskets and pulled the intake.

Viola, the gaskets were ragged at the bottom and there was obviously oil getting past them!

All buttoned up now have to wait for the China wall sealant to dry.

Hope this solves the oil consumption.

That photo shows the "V" of manifold is not the same angles as the heads.

Sucks up oil from the valley.

The gasket clamp is good for the top half, but not the bottom half.

Gary

[blykins]

I agree, intake manifold flanges need trued up.

[tortuga]

Originally Posted by blykins

I agree, intake manifold flanges need trued up.

Goddamnit I did not check the dry clearance at the China walls as the ford install directions clearly say to do...I’ll run it for a bit and see if by dumb luck it sealed (it won’t) and count on doing the whole thing again. I wonder if just trimming down the flanges on the manifold where it meets the China walls? Or do I have a sh*t manifold? Oh I guess that’s what you’re saying? I first pictured the mating surfaces with the head...

The gap at the ends could be pretty big as long as enough silicon was on there to catch splashing oil (no pressure under there)...

Steve H
1764

[blykins]

I have to mill the flanges on over 50% of intakes that I use because the flanges are not cut on the correct angle or are slightly off.

This seems to be your issue too, the flanges are not on the right angle.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by blykins

I have to mill the flanges on over 50% of intakes that I use because the flanges are not cut on the correct angle or are slightly off.

This seems to be your issue too, the flanges are not on the right angle.

Yes, the gasket compression is ok on the top and gradually becomes less towards the bottom. So the manifold face is not parallel to the head face.
The included angle needs to be measured, and then transferred to the manifold as a machined operation.

Easy enough for an engine machinist.

Gary

[tortuga]

Cometic makes .060, .120, and .200 thick gaskets for exactly this issue, I’m going to try going with the .120 after maybe shaving a bit off the manifold where it seals to the China walls after checking it per the install instructions.

Thanks for the astute observations fellas

Steve H
Spf1764

[blykins]

Originally Posted by tortuga

Cometic makes .060, .120, and .200 thick gaskets for exactly this issue, I’m going to try going with the .120 after maybe shaving a bit off the manifold where it seals to the China walls after checking it per the install instructions.

Thanks for the astute observations fellas

Steve H
Spf1764

Hold up a minute now, before you go ordering stuff that you don't need. This is not the situation for a .120" gasket thickness and really has nothing to do at all with the china walls, unless you have zero gap there now.

I'm not giving the shadetree mechanic version, I'm giving you the engine builder version so you know how to fix this correctly.

Look down the intake plenum and see how the ports line up. If the intake port roof sits below the cylinder head port roof, then your plan of action will be to have the intake side flanges milled until they're true and the right angle. THEN you take a measurement and see how thick the intake gaskets need to be to line the port roofs up.

If the intake port roof sits above the head port roof, then take the intake off, take the intake gaskets off and set the intake back on and check it again. If they line up, then you need to have the intake side flanges milled by the thickness of the gasket.

There are two priorities here. The first priority is that the intake manifold flanges are the correct angle and are straight/flat. The second priority is that the ports line up.

[tortuga]

Which is half the battle, I replaced the felpro 1262s gaskets with the recommended ford racing blue ones...

Took it for a 85 mile drive with a lot of rev matching and engine braking and the oil level didn’t budge one iota.

I am sort of expecting to have to tear it down again to do it “right” per all of the excellent advise from all of you really knowledgeable pros who have kindly taken the time to share their wisdom! Mr Blykins in particular.

The ports DO match up pretty well on center (well #2 & 6 that are a straight shot in on my super Vic), by eyeball anyway, the sealed gaps on the China walls on either end look pretty small, but it’s kind of hard to judge with the sealant goobering out and I don’t really want to trim it for fear of pulling it out.

It’s great to have the mystery solved though, dealing wit this issue is not that big of a deal.

Thanks again guys!

Steve H
1764