Help With my crate 427 Engine Won't Start

[Davidless]

Frustrated
I built a test stand so I could test and run my Ford 427 crate engine before the install in my SF. I recently had to replace both head gaskets because I noticed some oil seepage form the rear of both heads. Then to my dismay my oil was a bright beige in color, WOWE is me. I got the usual from the Ford performance dept… “never seen that problem in 20 years” I at least got a set of gaskets from them because it’s still under warranty.

At first, I thought the engine oil dye I used may have caused the oil color change but after letting some oil test samples set on my counter for a week, I can see some water separation at the top.

After taking my utmost time in changing out the gaskets and adjusting the rocker lash, and re assembling I cannot get this thing to start, it does the typical backfire and flame through the carburetor (timing was not off 180). I quadrupole checked TDC and alignment on #1 cylinder with the rotor cap, plugs are wet, and all valves are opening and closing, plus checked for spark, everything good.

I talked to an engine builder buddy from work and we both are now thinking it might be the Progression electronic distributor/ignition as a possible cause. I talked to them, but they don’t feel its their problem, but I can send it back for them to check.

This just doesn’t make sense. I dressed the engine up from the crate long block and it started right up, and I ran it many times for about 2 months. I was so impressed it would start with 2 pumps within 1 crank, better than fuel injection, so I thought.

Wires were installed as a unit with the cap when assembling so it’s not a wire mix up problem. I’m thinking of sending the ignition/dist. back to see if they can check it, and possibly installing a mechanical type for trouble shooting or eliminating this variable.
Not sure what else to try.

David

[eschaider]

If it started when you first got it, and it does not now, it is something you did to it.

Spark plugs should not be wet. Wet spark plugs will typically not fire. Put the engine back the way it was when it started and try again. Change one item at a time, and you will quickly find the whoops you inflicted upon your engine and yourself.

[Tommy]

I always start with the basics: compression, fuel and air in the right mix, and ignition spark at the right time. As you had the heads off, all possible causes are on the table. If it were mine, I'd pull the plugs and do a compression test to confirm the valves are set correctly. Next, I'd confirm the position of the distributor/rotor when the engine is at #1 TDC. Then run the plug wires starting from #1. As the fuel mix is less likely to cause the backfire, I'd button it up and try again. If the problems persisted, I'd look to test, replace or borrow a different distributor to see if that is the problem. Good luck.

[Davidless]

Originally Posted by eschaider

If it started when you first got it, and it does not now, it is something you did to it.

Spark plugs should not be wet. Wet spark plugs will typically not fire. Put the engine back the way it was when it started and try again. Change one item at a time, and you will quickly find the whoops you inflicted upon your engine and yourself.

Thats my problem, the engine is back exactly the way I originally built it.

[Davidless]

Originally Posted by Tommy

I always start with the basics: compression, fuel and air in the right mix, and ignition spark at the right time. As you had the heads off, all possible causes are on the table. If it were mine, I'd pull the plugs and do a compression test to confirm the valves are set correctly. Next, I'd confirm the position of the distributor/rotor when the engine is at #1 TDC. Then run the plug wires starting from #1. As the fuel mix is less likely to cause the backfire, I'd button it up and try again. If the problems persisted, I'd look to test, replace or borrow a different distributor to see if that is the problem. Good luck.

I've done what you mentioned for 3 days, lol. The only thing I didn't do was a formal compression check, but my trusty finger in the spark plug holes while rotating the crank tells me it's about the same as when I first looked for TDC. I definitely feel it's enough for it to start, but I can always get one and check.

[eschaider]

It can not be, or it would start just like it did the first time.

You have either changed something, or something has broken. Your job, "..." as the narrator in the Mission Impossible series says to the fictitious Ethan Hunt, is to ...

Replace the ... with, find what has changed or is broken.

[Grubby]

As others mention: check fuel, spark and compression. Take an old spark plug and plug it into one of the ignition wires and ground the body, then crank. There should be spark.

If that doesn’t fix it, I would borrow a compression gage.

John

[Grubby]

One more thing - MSD boxes require 11v. If you are running one, charge your batter.

John

[bobcowan]

If it is backfiring through the intake, then it is firing while the intake valve is open.

Most likely, you need to re-adjust the valve lash.

Before the engine is run, it's really difficult to find zero lash, because the lifters are not really full of oil yet. It's really common to get them too tight at first, which holds them open when it builds oil pressure.

Go around all the valves and loosen them about 1/3 turn. Then see if it starts.

When you get it running, you'll need to go around and do it again, so it's perfect. To find zero lash, tighten the nuts to just finger tight. You'll feel it when you hit zero.

[Tommy]

Bob,
Would turning the engine over (without running) for long enough to hold oil pressure for say ten second be enough to pump up all the lifters? If so it might reveal any lifters that are out of adjustment.

[Grubby]

I would suspect that the cranking to get it running has pumped up the lifters.

John

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by Tommy

Bob,
Would turning the engine over (without running) for long enough to hold oil pressure for say ten second be enough to pump up all the lifters? If so it might reveal any lifters that are out of adjustment.

It should. I usually pre-oil with a drill motor for at least 1 minute before a new start. Probably more than is needed, but it makes me happy.

Originally Posted by Grubby

I would suspect that the cranking to get it running has pumped up the lifters.

John

But he's had it apart since then.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Davidless

Frustrated
I built a test stand so I could test and run my Ford 427 crate engine before the install in my SF. I recently had to replace both head gaskets because I noticed some oil seepage form the rear of both heads. Then to my dismay my oil was a bright beige in color, WOWE is me. I got the usual from the Ford performance dept… “never seen that problem in 20 years” I at least got a set of gaskets from them because it’s still under warranty.

At first, I thought the engine oil dye I used may have caused the oil color change but after letting some oil test samples set on my counter for a week, I can see some water separation at the top.

After taking my utmost time in changing out the gaskets and adjusting the rocker lash, and re assembling I cannot get this thing to start, it does the typical backfire and flame through the carburetor (timing was not off 180). I quadrupole checked TDC and alignment on #1 cylinder with the rotor cap, plugs are wet, and all valves are opening and closing, plus checked for spark, everything good.

I talked to an engine builder buddy from work and we both are now thinking it might be the Progression electronic distributor/ignition as a possible cause. I talked to them, but they don’t feel its their problem, but I can send it back for them to check.

This just doesn’t make sense. I dressed the engine up from the crate long block and it started right up, and I ran it many times for about 2 months. I was so impressed it would start with 2 pumps within 1 crank, better than fuel injection, so I thought.

Wires were installed as a unit with the cap when assembling so it’s not a wire mix up problem. I’m thinking of sending the ignition/dist. back to see if they can check it, and possibly installing a mechanical type for trouble shooting or eliminating this variable.
Not sure what else to try.

David

This is the first clue. Electronic curves are calculated after a reference angle. Each spark event is a "retard", because of the module calculation, but it appears as an advance curve.
The reference angle is typically 50-70 degrees BTDC.
Are you sure you are following your distributor alignment procedure correctly?

[jhv48]

It’s a timing issue. You’ve got fuel, air and spark. The spark isn’t being delivered at the right time.

[Davidless]

Originally Posted by jhv48

It’s a timing issue. You’ve got fuel, air and spark. The spark isn’t being delivered at the right time.

Yes, I agree because everything checks out. I'm going to try a mechanical dist to rule out my electronic progression dist.

[rustyrims]

Are you using the 351 or 302 firing order? their different.
most cam manufactures use the 5.0 HO firing order

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

If it is backfiring through the intake, then it is firing while the intake valve is open.

Originally Posted by rustyrims

Are you using the 351 or 302 firing order? their different.
most cam manufactures use the 5.0 HO firing order

I wonder if the two are related... Worth checking.

[fordsrule@msn.com]

I know you are talking about a 427 sb , I have a ford racing 347 the firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

[hauss]

something not right with timing .

[Davidless]

Firing order has not changed, when I removed the electrical to change gaskets I removed the wires, dist as a complete unit so the wires have not be mixed. plus, I triple checked.