sb Ford vs sb Chevy

[RACER X #99]

Scott,
A couple of fine looking brand x motors you have there. I noticed both are left turn engines. How about a look at your Cobra power.

Cranky

[scottj]

Cranky,
Thanks. The brand x on the left (actually its an Oldsmobile) is the Rocket block motor for the Cobra. The differences are: Iron vs alum block, both are tall deck, raised cam, spread rail, stroker blocks. Both are 4" stroke, 6.25 rod, & 1.063 cd pistons. Cobra gets AFR 210's w\Vic jr vs 18 deg Chapmans with a spider. Both engines run the same cam lobes, the Cobra's is ground at 106 lobe separation to go with its 9.5:1 comp vs 108 w/13.5:1. Cobra has pumps on the front vs pumps on the bellhousing. Cobra has a heavier crank too. After experiencing the aluminum motor in the Cobra, the basic idea for the Rocket motor was to soften up the power delivery and still use the new crank, rods and pistons that I had, if I didn't already have the stuff , I would have built it at 380 in. These differences lowered the operating rpm by 600rpm and lowered the torque by 70 ft/lbs.

If I were to start from scratch ( read: if I could afford it ), I'd build an aluminum RDI at 418 ci with the SC1 head for the GRT. Pro Power just dyno'ed one at 812 hp. That head seems to be the strongest head in dirt Late Model right now. But... since I can't hook up what I've got (again read; since I can't afford it), I'll use the money for tires. I'll say this, neither Ford or Chevy dominated DLM again this year, but one Chassis mfg'er did. Rocket Chassis went 1,2,3; 1-Ford, 2-Chevy, 3-Dodge. As you already know, all the power in the world ain't worth a darn if you can't hook it up.
Scott

[Alex Evonosky]

Cranky is correct.
Years ago at the track, Chev. was the race engine. Once all the Mustangs came back to the track, suppliers started producing more and more Ford racing parts.
If you race a corvette, use the cheap Chev. engine.
If you race a Ford, use the good, Ford engine.
Years ago, the BB was the most power and torque, but with todays technology the small block is the way.
My .02 worth....
Cobracer#15

[leslie.files]

scottj., I ran at Red River Valley Speedway in Fargo, ND., Buffalo River Speedway in Glyndon, MN., and occasionally at the speedway in Jamestown, ND. I just moved to Wyoming and am taking a year off to adjust.

[Excaliber]

ScottJ,
You make a strong case for NOT using Vette parts in a Cobra. It only leads to nasty things like Chev modors being a "natural". I ran a 57 Ford dirt track car back in the 60's early 70's and ALWAYS lost to Chevys. That was then, this is now, the future looks much brighter (have I waited long enough?). I'm Ford through and through.



Ernie

[scottj]

Ernie,
I'd say you've waited long enough, longer than I would have. While I think I understand a person's being loyal to a certain brand, it's not something I subscribe to. Why should I, the auto makers haven't done me any favors, so I'll buy what ever fits my needs best. I like the Ford head the best right now, but I can't justify the extra cost. Does greater enjoyment come from a steadfast loyalty to Ford?

Leslie.files,
Growing up, I spent my weekends at Bemidji, Hibbing, and Grand Rapids' tracks.

Scott

[RACER X #99]

If you have a garage full of parts it doesn't make any sense to switch to another brand if the brand you run is competitive. All the pro built engines are relatively equal in HP. It is handling that makes you a winner. Of course the racers already know that.
Once the Cobra guys go from street cruisers to open track they start to understand about handling.

Scott, BTW
Last October a guy shows up at the Glen with a 70's something Chevelle low rider just like you see on the street. He kicked everbody's ass. Just happened to have a 520 ci aluminum BB Donovan.Independant rear, All trick suspension.FAST,FAST,FAST

Cranky

[scottj]

Cranky,
Reminds me of this guy that shows up at Black Hawk for high speed auto-x with an '82 Caddy and puts the whoopin' on almost everyone. The car is on page 68 of the Jan '02 Hot Rod. He just won the Car Craft real street eliminator competition also. I really enjoy when a good driver in a bad car beats bad drivers in good cars.

We scaled his new project last weekend; a 580 hp, 1900#, Ultima GTR. Good driver, great car... should be interesting.
Scott

[COBRA427]

Scottj,

I think you're on to something, run whatever your heart desires, regardless who makes it. You are obviously very knowledgeable about hi-performance cars, that's why you use GM running gear.
Ed

[scratch]

'ol Cranky ....
...he knows deep down that Chevy makes a superior small block, that's why he keeps throwing it back up for discussion

Whatever engine turns your crank cranky. We might be stuck with the cobra body brick but that doesn't mean we're stuck with low performance engines, brakes and other items.

Compare the DEALER prices on crate motors and then list what you get for the money...Chevy wins hands down every time!
BTW; what totally convinced me was the 4 bolt offer on the 350 H.O.

Cranky; I can't imagine running a race car 300+ hp without a 4 bolt main. What's Ford High Performance thinking about? Are you sure you are pushing your race car hard enough ?

And screw that "resale" value argument, just let the next guy change it out if he doesn't like Chevy. big deal.

I crack up everytime I hear a SBC decreasing the value by $10K. Hell the engine doesn't even cost that much! Pull the engine out, sell the thing as is...

Besides, once the prospective buyer sees what the SBC does, he will change his tune.

CRANKY please don't confuse the children with that BS about what brands professional NASCAR engine builders use.

...they use machine shops against (yes branded) hand picked blocks, but the difference ends right there. The internal parts ARE NOT FORD, CHEVY or STUDEBAKER from that point on.

Christ on a crutch. Nobody ever accused us kit car guys of being finance wizards.

I have a Question for the Crankster; Why do you race on a cobra body?

scratch

[Bannon]

At this price point who's going to quibble over a couple of hundred bucks anyway. If we were building Meyer's Manxes it might matter...
just my $.02

JB

[Tom T.]

Best small block engine I ever had was back in junior college...had a '55 Chevy with 4.56 gears...roller/solids Chev 327, that engine was something else. Became a self-taught expert in rebuilding BW T10 trannies...the torque differential on the 1-2 powershift was b-i-g. The LS6 in my Z06 sounds and behaves very similarly...not much torque (at least compared to my boat anchor Contemporary engine) but my oh my it wakes right up at 4,000 and screams to redline. Like the fella said a few posts earlier, don't see the need to be a flat-out Ford or Chevy guy...both have their virtues depending upon the application.

TT

[RACER X #99]

Scratch,
Nothing like jumping in right away. I thought this thread died two months ago.
I'll try to answer your question.
Cause the Cobra is the only race car I own.
Here's a question for you. The only part on my new engine that has a Ford name on it is the timing case cover. Is it still a Ford engine?
Cranky

[Excaliber]

Why does someone race a Cobra body?

Some people get it and some don't, it's a silly question at best! It's sure feels good to see Ford being competitive. Heck I've owned them all, you can make a strong case for a bunch of motors in lots of different applications.

So why would I "prefer" a Ford? Why would I prefer a Cobra body over a more "sleek" design? 'Cause thats what being a "fan" is all about.

I have always told my son no matter WHO makes what, there are good ones and bad ones. Ford Edsel? ewwww. Chevy Vega? ewwww. Lots of "mistakes" inter mixed with the "good" ones. I like Dodge too! I never was a big Chevy fan, not sure why. At 13 my son is without a doubt a solid Ford fan. Now how did that happen? I tried to bring him up right, lol.

Ernie

[bigfoot]

hi every one you know ive been around cars for about 20 years now ive owned all three of the auto makers gm,ford,dodge and ill tell you what one thing for sure and two things for certain you cant go wrong with gm at all and ill tell you something else two years ago i built a 1980 dodge d50 with a 231cubic inch buick v6 on a dyno machine with a five speed transmission it was 285hp@6700 let me see you do that with a ford v6

[Aussie Mike]

AU$6,750 (US$4800) for a brand new LS1 Chev crate motor. Stock unopened LS1s down here are making 335 HP at the rear wheels just with careful ECU remapping. That's about 420HP at the crank with the average 25% drivetrain loss. And this is all before even turning a wrench on the motor.

Just a change of cam can bump that figure to 470HP at the crank.

Cheers

[BANDIT 1]

I thought Chevrolet made a sports car for the small block Chevrolet engine to go in, it's called a Corvette.

[Aussie Mike]

Originally posted by BANDIT 1


I thought Chevrolet made a sports car for the small block Chevrolet engine to go in, it's called a Corvette.

Yep, Mike Murphy is making a sports car for the small block chev too. He's calling his a Cobra.

Cheers

[aumoore]

If you want to go OEM crate motor then the chevy is a little cheeper but then you have to factor in that most kits are designed around a Ford Motor and then ther is resale. As far as building a Ford VS. Chevy the same basic prinicples apply to the basic build but there are a few differances in the final setup. Don't ask most Ford guys to build a Chevy.

Someone mentioned that Ford does not make a big block that can compete with a chevy big block. Has anyone heard of the 385 series a.k.a. the 429-460 series. There is an article in one of the hot rod mags out now that has a 460 stroker making the best HP and that is over BBC and a few 426 Hemi's(not the fake Hemi that Diamler-Chrylser is trying to pass off as a "HEMI" and it does not have Hemi combustion chambers) The 385 series makes some serious power and is about as reliable as they come. Like the BBC and the Ford Cleveland engines they have canted valves which makes more power than an inline valve engine. That is what Trick Flow did for the SBF.

Up to about 350HP in a small block you probably can build a chevy for about 10-15% less than a Ford but after that the costs are about the same as you have to go aftermarket and then the parts are almost identical in cost.

[V-8]

Also SBF Ford (351w vs. 350)is:
1) taller deck height than sbc (it means you can stroke it more or built it with a longer rod and stronger).
2)SBF's rod and main crank journals are larger than sbc in stock and bbc also.
3)Rod lenght ratio better than sbc.Many sbc guys spending money to 6.0 inc rods.
4)Ofcourse Ford's engine sound is another world...
5)Most sbc guys buying cam button spacer for their roller cam but we don't...
6)Sbf's cyl. heads are symmetric port design and also intake manifold
7)...