Newbie question: 351W vs. 351C

[round_midnight]

Can someone educate me as to the difference between a 351 Windsor and a 351 Cleveland? Why do SB Cobras use the 351W so much more often than the 351C? Tnx.

'Round_Midnight

[PSB]

Biggest reason that people use the 351W over the 351C - parts availability. There are quite a few parts for the 351W that are interchangable with the 302. There is a big aftermarket for 302 (5.0L) performance parts because of the popularity of the 5.0L Mustang. For example, there are a plethora of aftermarket cams and heads available for the 5.0L, and 5.0L cams and heads will work on a 351W.


Pete

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Hi,
The Clevland engine has large oval port canted valve heads. They used this for the '69 Boss 302 mustang. The heads made good power at high rpm's, but were useless on the street as they had no bottom end power. It's hard to find an old boss 302 as most were blown up trying to rev too high. I would stick with a Windsor small block as the new heads make more power than the old canted valve heads. If you really want 'race only' heads , the Yates heads are a modern version of the clevland heads and most Nascar Ford engines use them for 9,000 rpm power.
Perry.

[CowtownCobra]

The biggest reason there are so many parts for the 351W is NASCAR. Most of the NASCAR series, from 'cup to dirt tracks, use some variation on the 351W. We'd all like to pick through Robert Yates spare parts bin...

[PSB]

Originally posted by CowtownCobra

The biggest reason there are so many parts for the 351W is NASCAR. Most of the NASCAR series, from 'cup to dirt tracks, use some variation on the 351W. We'd all like to pick through Robert Yates spare parts bin...

Ok, the biggest reason there are so many parts that people actually use on street driven Cobras is because of the aftermarket for 5.0L Mustangs. How many people use Yates or Rousch heads, solid roller cams, and other NASCAR parts on Cobras? On the other hand, how many people use AFR, Trick Flow, or Edelbrock heads and hydraulic cams - all stuff that that was developed for the 5.0.


Pete

[ENTDOC]

The 351c was only produced for 3 or 4 years in the early 70s so supply is limited.It is a great motor and looks awsome in the engine bay(more like a big block).It is a high revving motor and even with 4v heads make plenty of torque for the cobra.That motor was largely killed off by the energy crisis and Fords need to produce a lower cost fuel efficient people hauler and lost focus on racing.Now days the 351w can be made to produce plenty of oomph,but not nearly as cool if you ask me,sort of a me too motor. chuck

[coyled]

In the old days(20 years ago), the cleveland motors would make more power than the windsors because of better heads. Now days, there are plenty of good heads available for the windsor. The ultimate head is a yates head which bolts on a windsor block. The oiling system on a windsor is much better than a cleveland. So, unless somebody gives you a 351c or you allready have one, go with the windsor. Scott.

[CowtownCobra]

Originally posted by PSB


Yates or Rousch heads, solid roller cams, and other NASCAR parts on Cobras?
Pete

Pete, More than you might think. But I agree the 5 liter Mustang is a huge market for hipo parts.

[rdorman]

Back in the day the Cleveland was king of Ford small blocks. Arguably king of all small blocks. The windor was the work horse where the cleveland was designed to race. But then Ford desided to pull the plug on all factory backed racing and then the gas crunch hit. No more cleveland (at least in the US). Ford choose the cleveland for the pantera, not the windsor.

The basic head design is superior. Which is why the Nascar windsor heads are of a cleveland type layout, not windsor. Ignore the torque talk. They can be built for broad torque curves. Mine has 90% of peak torque from down around 2000 to well over 5000. They just love to rev so much and come on so strong at the top end I think that this is a common misconception.

Also the oiling issue. Very easily and cheaply remedied.

Have to go with the good looks factor. Hands down a better looking motor.

Tough as hell to. Stock rods good to 7000+, cranks, good luck breaking one no matter how fast you turn it (pro stockers where turning 10,000 on stock (but modified) cranks with rarely ever a failure.) Biggest weekness was the two piece valve and keepers, but you won't be buying those to put in your car! Like the rest of the family they are thin wall castings so there are limits but still a tough as he!! block. Exhaust ports don't live up to the intake ports because of packaging but that can also be changed (only needed if you want to twist some SERIOUS RPM (in which case just buy a new set of aluminum heads).

Heads. The new windsor heads, even the windor style heads, are better than the old Cleveland heads. 30 years of technology. But there are also some trick new heads available for the cleveland. Some seriously nice aluminum heads (AFR?) including some really cool 4 valve heads.

Windsor will definiatly win the value race. But, give me the cleveland.

Rick

[kountzecobra]

Rick pretty well summed it up. Cleveland- High Performance beginnings. Windsor-Station Wagon motor beginnings.

Seriously, more bang for the buck with a Windsor. I just like Clevelands better.

[round_midnight]

Thanks, everyone for your responses! They were very informative.

[Chifo]

All the above are great comments. If I was building a car today I would certainly look strongly at the windsor. That said I have a killer 351C in my Butler but parts are getting hard to come by and are more expensive.

[misfit41]

I understand clevelands are a bit more tricky to build than windsors,or fe's for that matter,,I have to say it's a shame there arent more parts and motors around,but they had a short lifespan,I had a couple and loved them,1973 mach one with ram air,no power steering or air,toploader ,positrac .I think it was 3.25,,that thing flew,I couldnt get over how well it ran,,wish I had it back,I think it was 2600 bucks I sold it for,original paint and flawless,ahh,,the 70's ,life was good,,
just venting,,Tk

[KyleWatson]

Maybe it's just me, but you don't see many Windsor motors going into old hotrods, in part because of how big the small block is, you see Chevy because the 350 is smaller. Knowing that, it's going to be tough to put a 351C into many vehicles because of Size alone.... That motor is huge! I have a 67 Mustang, that it wouldn't fit in, but a good friend of mine got it into a Torino. There aren't many cars with that much room under the hood.... To top that off, seems like dollar for dollar, you could probably get more power from a Windsor because of how many parts are available....

[ogasman]

Just a question, what wouldn't fit in the 67 mustang? They came in 69 an 70's. I have one that I put in a 74 maverick. The shock towers needed a bit of a tweek to clear the stock 4v exhausts, but nothing major. The car is awsome with this motor in it. The car weighs about 3200 lbs and has more bottom end torque than could ever be used with a street tire. Don't see much of a problem with a 2500 lb cobra. My freind has one in a 69 cougar. He has a scat stroker to 383 inches, eagle rods and the early aluminum ford motorsport heads, the A3's. It was dynoed at 783 HP. Sounds pretty good to me.

[Randy Klein]

Dear "Round..."

Another alternative is a combination of both: The "Clevor ."

This engine combines Cleveland heads with the Windsor Block. These seem to have a home among dirt track racers who often "spin up" the rpms and keep them high (7-9KRPM) as they slip around the track.

One place to look to find out more about "Clevors" is on the Pantera sites. Here is a thread to go to: http://realbig.com/detomaso/1999-01/366.html

An Aluminum "Clevor" looks to be a desirable option too and can be built for a pretty penny.

If you are looking for advice about which engine to choose, the answer lies in what you plan on doing with it. If you plan on racing a la NASCAR or dirt track, then the Clevor is a desirable option. If you plan on running on the street and want your car to be mellow enough to drive around town, a block with smaller ports is easier and less costly to build and will still plant you in the seat and break em' loose, if you wish!

Good luck with your choice.

All the best,

[rdorman]

You could get a cleveland in a 67 but I think it called for some minor shock tower mods. He!!, you could get a BB from ford in a 67 mustang, you can fit a cleveland. Some where around here is a post about the different sizes of the different motors.

The Clevor is very popular in racing circles. Take a good aluminum block (or just use the cleveland short block with a good balancer, arp bolts and forged pistons, if you keep it under 7000 or so), afr heads (small valve), funnel web, good roller and have one of the baddest street small block ever made. Easy 500 horsepower in nice drivable street trim. And that is at 351 cubes.

Can you tell I sure do like the Cleveland?

Rick

[coyled]

Kyle, the main reason old hot rods have had chevy motors is because the stock sump is in back. The stock front sump on a ford would hit the cross member on many old rod's. Scott

[KyleWatson]

The Windsor fits in the 67 Mustang with about 1/2 inch to spare on each side because of how large the shock towers are.... The 351C wouldn't fit enless I cut the he!! out of the shock towers, and it might have been too tall also.... The bottom line for me, was that I couldn't keep it looking even close to stock....

[cobrajeff]

A 351 Cleveland will DEFINATELY fit in a 1967 Mustang, with NO CUTTING required. In 1967, a 390 ci FE was an available engine option - my Dad and my Uncle each had one.

I helped my Cousin install a 351C in his '67 Mustang - it was a straight bolt-in. There are no tower modifications required in a '67-70 Mustang to fit either a 351C or an FE engine.

regards,

Jeff