Newbie question: 351W vs. 351C

[RACER X #99]

Scott is 100% correct as to why the Chevy engine has been the engine of choice for rodders for a long time. The front sump of the Ford gets in the way of all the steering gear on most old hotrods.
As far as the Cleveland being the dominant sb, you must be dreaming. The chevy sb was and still is the dominant engine among all rodders but the diehard Ford guys. The Nascar sb Ford is the best of both worlds. It uses the priority oiling system of the Windsor and the Yates type Cylinder heads of the Cleveland. 358 CI Nascar engines have been dynoed at almost 800 hp at 9,500 rpms. And this year those heads are being updated with even better flowing ports to catch up with the SB-2 Chevy and Dodge sb heads.
Nothing wrong with being a diehard Ford guy but every once in a while you have to have a reality check.
RD

[rdorman]

Going to have to go with Jeff on this one. I had a '67 390 GTA, a 67 289 fastback, a 68 289 coupe, a '70 351 Cleveland coupe......

The bad port design of the exhaust on the cleveland head was specifically because of packaging issues in the mustang. Header/exhaust manifold clearence was at a premium, but it did fit.

Rick

[rdorman]

No reality check needed here. When the Cleveland was introduced it was the best small block offered in a American car. Now if you are talking 30 years later, no problem conceding that the motor has been surpassed.

On to the rodder thing. I get so tired of seeing SB Chevies in 32 fords, etc. Sure they are plentiful and cheap but I find it refresing to see a ford engine in a 'ford' car.

Rick

[scottj]

Originally posted by RACER X #99


...the Yates type Cylinder heads of the Cleveland. 358 CI Nascar engines have been dynoed at almost 800 hp at 9,500 rpms. And this year those heads are being updated with even better flowing ports to catch up with the SB-2 Chevy and Dodge sb heads.
RD

Looking for a better head than the Yates? Ford already has a significantly better head than the Yates, it's the SC1. To be more specific, it is an SC1 from Don Losito at Ultra Pro. Don is (or at least was) the only one that can get the raw casting from Ford. He then does extensive welding to the raw casting to allow it to be machined to Chevy SB2.2 valve angles. Chevy valve angles combined with the Ford combustion chamber allow it to make substantially more power than the Yates. They're not legal for Nextel Cup which is one of the reasons why Cup engines pale in comparison to dirt Late Model engines.
Scott

[RACER X #99]

Scott, Hard to beleive the Dirt guys a making lots more hp than the Nascar pros. Your comparing the best engine builders of sb engines with almost unlimited funds. Roush, Penske, Yates, against teams with very limited funds compared to the Cup guys.
And the Dirt racers are mostly 410 ci compared to the 358 ci Cup motors.
358 ci, flat tappet cams, one 4 bbl carb on gasoline and close to 800 HP costs lotsa money.
I know the dirt racers are real good and probably some are loaded but I think they got more engine to play with and I know some are running alcohol.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

RD

[scottj]

Cranky- I agree with everything you wrote. Although, alchohol isn't legal at the top level of dirt Late Model and that where the most HP is found. In the other DLM series that run "open rules" engines and do allow alchohol, gasoline is still the fuel of choice. Alchohol only makes equal HP, but more torque than gas.

12:1 compression vs. 15:1 for DLM
Flat tappet vs. Roller
358cid vs. unlimited cid
and any head is legal for DLM including used Cup heads (just don't use restrictor plate heads unless you like to lose)

....are the main reasons why all the top dirt Late Model engine builders are making over 800HP. Torque is where the DLM engine really kills the cup engine... over 100ft/lbs more.
Scott

[Brad Long]

I have a "clevor" in my Shell Valley. Austrailian 4-barrell heads and VERY SCARY! Hard to believe it moves that fast with very little throttle.

[eric_donald]

Originally posted by KyleWatson


The Windsor fits in the 67 Mustang with about 1/2 inch to spare on each side because of how large the shock towers are.... The 351C wouldn't fit enless I cut the he!! out of the shock towers, and it might have been too tall also.... The bottom line for me, was that I couldn't keep it looking even close to stock....

Sounds like you tried to stick a 351M/400 in the Mustang. The Modified engine was wider than the 351C. I put a Cleveland w/2V heads and stock exhaust manifolds in a Mercury Monarch with no mods, trimming or cutting of any kind. If a Ford had a 289/302/351W in it, then a Cleveland will fit.

Although spark-plug changes and manifold gasket replacement was a pain.

[coyled]

Scottj, are they making more torque because of the cubic inches? At 358ci on gas, what kind if torque and hp would the dirt guys make? My 358ci motor makes 500 to 530 foot pounds from 4800 to 7500 rpm. Scott

[scottj]

Scott,
I know, 434 vs. 358 = apples vs. oranges. Today 358’s aren’t really run in DLM. But, a couple of years ago when you got a 100lb weight break for running a 358 most guys ran them at the national level. The dirt guys borrowed all the Cup technology such as the same 3.335” stroke ultra-light cranks, the same piston guided rods, same gas ported piston/ring package, and the same heads if they wanted them. Also, we ran them sealed (vacuum) like the cup guys do. Power-wise, what we had was essentially an aluminum cup engine. The cool part was that Cup paid for all the R&D. What wasn’t cool was that with a 3.335 stroke and Cup heads it was too lazy off the corner for a dirt car. You had to turn it 9-9200 to make power but it also had to pull from 5000 to get off the corner. The solution was to use a smaller intake manifold, 15.5: 1 compression and more cam. I don’t have exact numbers but the torque increase was substantial. More important than the peak #'s was that the engine would now pull over a 4000 rpm spread.

When the weight break disappeared a couple of years ago so did the 358 and the search for how to get more power out of a cup engine for dirt use.

My original point was that there is no need to wait for the cup guys to develop cylinder heads if someone needs a more powerful head. On a 418 cid dirt engine the SC1 is around 40hp stronger than a Cup head and over 700 ft/lbs. More important than the peak numbers is the spread of power and the drivability since dirt cars are much more sensitive than asphalt cars with regard to power delivery. Most dirt engines could pick up 20 hp with a cam change but they would be undrivable.

RDI will direct anyone that needs the next step up from a cup head to Don Losito (Ultra Pro) and the SC1 head. They did me.
Sorry for the rambling, Scott

[RACER X #99]

Scottj,
The Ford Cup guys are getting new heads this season. Is this similar or the same head that you are talking about. I know that Brodix makes a Nascar legal head but they also had/have better flowing heads that were not Nascar approved.
With the almost common template for the bodies, how long is it gonna be before we see the common engine? You know it ain't gonna be a Ford. I sure hope that doesn't happen cause that will be my last Nascar race.

Cranky

[scottj]

RD, The SC1 has been around for a while but the Losito version was a radial change to the original casting. I think SC stands for Sprint Car. I don't know if the new cup head is based on it or not. ???

Common engine? Might even be a fuel injected toyota

[Edley Rondinone]

Also, because the 351W uses the same heads as a 289/302, the "Cobra-Powered by Ford" valve covers are used in a lot of Cobras.
I had a '65 mustang coupe with a '73 351 Cleveland with '70 4V heads; previous owner had chopped out the inner shock towers at the A-arms, so I had a frame shop realign the A-arms, then reweld the shock towers to clear the 351C. Spark plug changes took about an hour, mainly by using the "Braille" method. Car ran well: 14.60 @ 97 MPH with a 3.00 open rear end, spinning thru most of first gear. Not blindingly fast, but could beat ALL the stock 5.0 Mustangs and Camaros up until about 1989.