Your ideal 351 build??

[offroadr35]

Ok here's the game. You're starting with a 351W. How would you build it? The goal is to get maximum horsepower while retaining driveability and reliability. There is no set budget limit but some consideration should be made for the cost/benefit relationship of various parts.

Have at it!

-Steve

[blykins]

SVO Aluminum Block, 9.200" Deck height...dry sump block
Large bore, short stroke....358ci
Forged internals....H-Beam Rods
10.5:1 CR
Yates Heads
Victor Jr. 9.200 Yates Intake
Electric Water Pump
Jesel Belt drive
Mechanical Roller Cam...milder grind than Winston Cup...maybe Busch Series grind
Roller Lifters, Roller Rockers

....hehe....I don't like to talk about stuff like this...I know I'll never be able to afford it... :-) But we're probably talking about 600hp...7000rpm range. Probably the torque of a Geo Metro...but lots of horsee-power.

[Tony Radford]

My turn:
Windsor block
Scat 427 stroker crank
H beam rods
solid cam 286/294 duration, .540 lift
TFS Twisted Wedge heads (max additional port and polish)
Vic. Jr intake, port matched to heads
9.8:1 CR
BG Mighty Demon carb 750 CFM w/mechanical secondaries
Edelbrock high volume water pump
March Peformance brackets and pullies
MSD ignition
ARP hardware throughout
Replaced a stock-stroke 351 @410 HP. No comparison!

[scottj]

My ideal engine in a nutshell:

ProPower 417cid gas dirt engine
RDI aluminum block
Ford SC1 heads CNC'ed by Ultra Pro
Drysump / sealed engine
Standard dirt engine internals i.e. lightweight crank, CP pistons, Crower or Dyers rods, solid roller, Edelbrock circle track W.P., magnesium intake, Crower severe duty lifters, Jesel shaft rockers, Del West titanium valves, retainers, keepers, Stealth carb, etc.

820 HP
34K

[xlr8or]

I start with a nice Windsor block and trade it in for a good used 460 block. Stroke it to 521, add the Kasse engineered SCJ heads and a nice roller cam. Dual plane single carb manifold with a 1000 CFM carb. Have a nice easy 500 - 550 + HP and Torque at less than 6000 RPM. Set the rev limiter at 6000 so the engine just runs forever without getting stressed out or overheated.


You only said I had to start with a 351 block. You didn't say I had to end up with one.

Ducking and covering....

[blykins]

Cheater....

[offroadr35]

Originally posted by xlr8or


I start with a nice Windsor block and trade it in for a good used 460 block. Stroke it to 521, add the Kasse engineered SCJ heads and a nice roller cam. Dual plane single carb manifold with a 1000 CFM carb. Have a nice easy 500 - 550 + HP and Torque at less than 6000 RPM. Set the rev limiter at 6000 so the engine just runs forever without getting stressed out or overheated.


You only said I had to start with a 351 block. You didn't say I had to end up with one.

Ducking and covering....

how bout this added constraint...WEIGHT is a fairly major concern.

-Steve

[blykins]

Better not say that....he'll find an aluminum block.....hehehe

[Jack21]

Well, you asked a serious question, and I'll try to give you a serious answer. You can go a little conservative to push this 2400 pound street legal race car around the pavement and still leave enough cash in the budget for cooling system, suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, oh, and a paint job too.

Here's how I built a 351W for my Cobra, and what I would do differently. Same objective. Reliability for a daily driver.

Block was a well seasoned T-Bird motor I picked up for $200. Kept the block, crank, rods, and timing cover. Everything else went into the dumpster.

After a good cleaning, squaring, and .030 overbore, we (the machine shop and I) started putting it back together. The stock rods were reused after performance reworking (magged, sides ground, shot peened, big ends rounded, replaced bolts with ARP). That being said, with todays low cost aftermarket rods, I'd just replace them.

In fact the first thing I'd change would be the displacement. Go with the 393 crank, aftermarket rods, and pistons made for this setup. I used KB hypereutectic for my Cobra motor. KB makes a piston specific for the 393 stroker. But with my driving style, and engine usage, a KB will last forever. With your driving style, you might want to go forged. Either way, get the piston skirts polymer coated with an oil retentitive coating. Anti friction, and aids cooling. See valvesprings below.

Rings. I let myself get talked out of this, but there is enough documentation and test data to support the extra cost of zero gap rings, either Total Seal, or Childs & Albert.

I used the billet steel flywheel, and SFI crank damper. Little stuff that won't cause problems later on. Used a roller bearing pilot bushing for the trans input shaft. Used a new Powermaster starter instead of the Ford OEM unit. Smaller, lighter, works a lot better, lasts a lot longer. Oil pan. Used the Canton Road Race unit, and windage tray. Cobras corner like roller coasters! You don't want to loose your oil pressure taking that Interstate on/off rampat your tire adhesion limits. All Cobras need a racing oil pan.

Valve train. Used a CompCams retrofit hydraulic roller cam 224/224, 533/533. Would not change a thing here. This cam pulls like a diesel from 1100 RPM in 4th, idles at 850 with a distinct lope, and pulls 16" vacuum. (Man, I'm used to cams that idle with 9 - 11" of vacuum! This thing is smooooth.) About 2800 RPM, this thing comes on, and stays on untill I let off at 6200. Used the CompCams valvesprings with the cam/kit (sent the stock springs back to TFS for a refund). Springs were sent to Airborne Coatings for an oil retentive polymer coating to aid spring cooling. Roller cam springs generate a lot of heat, which makes them fail. We'll see how well this works. The rest of the valve train includes CompCams Pro-Magnum steel roller rocker arms. Machine shop said, "Steel for the Street", and I listened. No problems. CompCams recommends sending rocker arms back for rebuild whenever the heads are off for valve grind. They replace roller trunions and tips so the rockers last essentially forever.

At DVSFIII, we put 'er on the chassis dyno. 325 RWHP/350RWTQ. Not wildly impressive, admittedly, but this is not a dialed in motor. AF was a little rich (12.5:1), and this was through the air cleaner and mufflers. However, the HP and TQ curve was exactly where Dyno 2000 said it would be.

Heads. Using TFS aluminum. They work great. There are other head options out there today that might work as good, or better. Rousch 200 iron heads are good. AFR 185 or 205 are good. 185's for stock displacement, 205's for strokers.

Intake. The Edelbrock Performer RPM seemst to have the lead. That's what I used. Haven't heard anyone using Wyand Stealth. Edelbrock Performer RPM "Air Gap" looks like it will give you a little more HP so long as you don't need an exhaust heated intake. I do, so I'll leave the intake alone.

Carb: Holley vs Demon!

Holley has been around for thousands of years, and all the bugs have been worked out. Or so I thought. Barry Grant tunes their carbs to the engines they're intended to be used on. Holley doesn't. If your cam is under 220 deg duration (@.050), they try a Holley. Over 220 deg @.050, use a Demon. The difference in drivability will astound you. Did me.

Ignition. The old tried and true MSD works wonders here. Pump the gas, turn the key, and she rumbles to a start every time.

[xlr8or]

Jack,
Nice setup you suggested. Sounds pretty straight forward and reliable. Your statement of "Reliability for a daily driver" says it all and that is the same reason I put what I did. I am a torque junkie so I fall on the BB side of the argument and still want to "Pump, Turnkey & Go".
As far as the weight issue goes, once you have aluminum heads, intake, water pump, pistons, flywheel, rockers, etc. etc. the difference isn't really that much. We're mostly only talking about the difference in bare block and crank weights. I don't want a SB vs. BB debate here by any means but the original statement was: "The goal is to get maximum horsepower while retaining driveability and reliability."
It makes sense to me do it with less stress and less rpm.
If I was to go with an FIA 289 car your setup would be very similar to what I would want.

Simply a preference.

[offroadr35]

the reason why i ask is because i just bought this coupe off ebay (auction closed 2 min ago). I'm terribly excited and already thinking about projects to make it a little more my own. Of course a good place to start would be massaging out a little more horsepower. What would you all do assuming you were starting with all of these components already.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2446547506

-Steve

P.S. seems like a good tune should be able to get more than 300rwhp out of the motor with these components to me. Does that sound a little low to anyone else?

[Jack21]

I'm a torque junky as well, and if this was a 3400 - 3800 pound car, I wouldn't be fooling with a mid-block. That being said, there are times when a little more grunt without downshifting a stock displacement 351W would be nice. So, if I were doing up another motor, it would be a 393W with a hydraulic roller cam.

Cobras are notorious for overheating, so I installed the best cooling system I could find. Cobras are notorious for roasting the drivers feet, so I ceramic coated the headers inside and out, and used double sided aluminum faced padding under the carpet.

One more thing to Cobra builders who don't have their car "On-the-street" yet.

It's all about balance. The car has to look good, go, stop, and turn corners. The car has to be fun to drive, safe to drive, and nice to drive. It is going to be a member of your family. Extended family if you join a local Cobra Club. (Wonderful people, I might add.)

My opinion, the 351W or stroker variant is an ideal size engine for a Cobra. But regardless of what you power it with, your driving skills are due for an upgrade. No Sh!t! A Cobra is so responsive that you're going to have to learn how to drive all over again!

You'll be thinking, "Jeez, I could kill myself in this thing!" Actually, the real danger is getting back into your commuter/grocery getter
and it doesn't go, stop, and turn corners like your Cobra does and you have an "Aw Sh!t!!!!"

Kinda like somebody handing you the keys to an Air Force F-16 fighter. It has a lot more capabilities than you do climbing into it for the first time. You've got to get to know her. Treat her right and she'll orgasm beyond your wildest dreams. Mistreat her, and you're a 16' hole in the ground in the dessert.

Heed my words, and respect your Cobra.

[Unique580hp]

Congratulations on your purchase

That looks like an awesome car. You will have a blast with it.

Just be careful.

[Rebel1]

Hey Jack..I like what you're saying about the 351 stroker.

Any idea how reliable a 89 351 windsor block would be stroked to 393??.

I know it is preferable to use the earlier (stronger) blocks but are the late blocks reliable at 393 ci on the street limited to say 6000 RPM.

I have a brand new (never been in a car) 1989, standard bore 351 windsor block, and am contemplating a motor built along the lines you suggest....mind you...I would add a girdle to the bottom end.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

[offroadr35]

with those parts doesn't 300rwhp sound a little low though? Apparently it was just tuned on a dyno, just seems that it should be closer to 350rwhp. If you guys started off with that engine would you leave it be or do anything else to it?

-steve

[misfit41]

Offroad35,
I dont even know you and I am really starting not to like you.
just teasing,,GREAT car,I am envious,,I am suprised at the price too,,enjoy ,and welcome, Tim

[Jack21]

Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one. This is my $.89 worth, based on 40 years of doing this. If you need a bottom end girdle because of the way you use the engine, e.g. weekend warrior, than you need an SVO or Dart 4 bolt block. The girdle is a band-aid. On the street,it is overkill. ARP studs on the bottom end, in fact ARP fastners on all critical components (mains, rods, heads, rocker studs & nuts).

My ideal build is based on my intended use of the motor. If your intended use differs, then your ideal build will be different.

Please do, however, take advantage of Desktop Dyno 2000 as design tool for building your ideal motor, regardless of size. Although the 351W I built for my Cobra appears to be a straightforward warm street motor (which it is), I looked at everything from mild to wild for a good year before buying any parts for it.

[xlr8or]

Steve congrats on the car. I saw it almost a year ago when I was visiting Factory Five and it's a darn nice car. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
Run it a while and see what you like and what you don't. Then figure out what to change.

Scott

[Rebel1]

Thanks for your thoughts Jack....Much appreciate them.

On the subject of girdles....My engine will be street use only...weekend toy if you will..no track work....built not unlike what you described. Quote: "In fact the first thing I'd change would be the displacement. Go with the 393 crank, aftermarket rods, and pistons made for this setup." Unquote. Of course all the ARP stuff is manditory as far as I'm concerned.

The girdle is cheap insurance...not there because I'm going to rev the guts out of it...simply because the ODD time I might wind it up to 5500 to 6000 RPM for a short period then I'd like to think the bandaid is there to help.

My enquiry had more to do with the reliability of the 89 series block built as you described driven by an old fart who doesn't flog his cars.

Thanks anyways.

[BMK]

Hey



Looks like someone is building a motor to sanbag with...



Cheers

Bernie

Bernie Knight

Mt. Gambier South Australia.
Home of "Weekend at Bernie's #2" - March 13th and 14th 2004