351w vs 351c

[dawger]

I’m in the early planning stages of my build and I’m looking for some direction or advice. Due to the uniqueness of these cars I was thinking of rebuilding a 351 –2V Cleveland to either a 393 or 408 stroker that I currently have. However I can do some horse trading and come up another 351 –2V Cleveland that is a 30 over short block that needs to be gone over and reassembled or a 351 –4V that is still unmolested. Should I opt for the 4v motor or the 2v motor to rebuild? I have been researching this site as well as the Pantera site and anything else I can dig up on the Internet about these motors. Will a 2v motor make a better street motor than the 4v? From what my research has turned up a 2v makes better low end torque and a 4v needs spun to get into its torque, limited performance parts due to the 4 year life span, and not as favorable oiling system as the Windsor’s. These are all things you guys and gal (hey little cobra) already knew. That is why my 1968 Mustang with a 351 –4v Cleveland motor has a 3800 stall c6 transmission with 3:55 posi, that runs REALLY well (was told around 425hp?). I also own a 1969 mustang fastback that I converted from an automatic car to a 4sp toploader with a 351 Windsor and a 3:25 limited slip (desktop dyno put it around 400hp and 400 ft.lbs. of torque). I guess my question is do I or should I opt for the 351 – 4v Cleveland or the 351 –2v to stroke to either 393 or 408? Would it worth the investment to stroke it versus a stock 30 over rebuild with performance parts? Since I I’m already there might as well stuff more cubic inches in it. Which leads me to my next issue how much horsepower is REALLY needed since only so much can be used before TRACTION is lost and it becomes unstreetable? I’m looking for a reliable street tolerable motor that runs on pump gas that won’t give me any troubles like the Cleveland I’ve owned for 20 years in the neighbor hood of 425 horsepower range if it ends up more oh well. Enough horespower so I don’t get spanked by some of these rice burners. I’m leaning towards the Cleveland over the Windsor due to the uniqueness of these cars that should deserve a unique motor. Since I can’t afford a 427 S.O. I think a Cleveland would be my next choice. And what is it that makes them have a different exhaust note than the Windsor’s when they are both 351 displacements? When I have the 68 Mustang out most people ask if it’s a Cleveland under the hood????

Sorry for the lengthiness…and thanks for all your input inadvance...

-Dawger

[LENSJADE]

Buy A Ford Motorsport Engine Crate 351w Great Motor Good Price And It Is Done And Drop In And Drive Save Time And Money

Len

[Manowar]

B]Dawger,[/b]
To be devil's advocate, here's one of each to consider:
http://www.theengineshop.com/clevor.htm
http://www.theengineshop.com/prods_pages/102075.htm

[DavidinDurango]

Windsor will allow more stroke w/ reliabililty than a Cleveland. (Deck ht.)

As a Pantera owner, I would opt for the Windsor - mostly due to availability of goodies. Having said that I should add that my Cleveland is great (stock stroke) but its not built to a supermotor, either.

Originally Posted by dawger

I’m in the early planning stages of my build and I’m looking for some direction or advice. Due to the uniqueness of these cars I was thinking of rebuilding a 351 –2V Cleveland to either a 393 or 408 stroker that I currently have. However I can do some horse trading and come up another 351 –2V Cleveland that is a 30 over short block that needs to be gone over and reassembled or a 351 –4V that is still unmolested. Should I opt for the 4v motor or the 2v motor to rebuild? I have been researching this site as well as the Pantera site and anything else I can dig up on the Internet about these motors. Will a 2v motor make a better street motor than the 4v? From what my research has turned up a 2v makes better low end torque and a 4v needs spun to get into its torque, limited performance parts due to the 4 year life span, and not as favorable oiling system as the Windsor’s. These are all things you guys and gal (hey little cobra) already knew. That is why my 1968 Mustang with a 351 –4v Cleveland motor has a 3800 stall c6 transmission with 3:55 posi, that runs REALLY well (was told around 425hp?). I also own a 1969 mustang fastback that I converted from an automatic car to a 4sp toploader with a 351 Windsor and a 3:25 limited slip (desktop dyno put it around 400hp and 400 ft.lbs. of torque). I guess my question is do I or should I opt for the 351 – 4v Cleveland or the 351 –2v to stroke to either 393 or 408? Would it worth the investment to stroke it versus a stock 30 over rebuild with performance parts? Since I I’m already there might as well stuff more cubic inches in it. Which leads me to my next issue how much horsepower is REALLY needed since only so much can be used before TRACTION is lost and it becomes unstreetable? I’m looking for a reliable street tolerable motor that runs on pump gas that won’t give me any troubles like the Cleveland I’ve owned for 20 years in the neighbor hood of 425 horsepower range if it ends up more oh well. Enough horespower so I don’t get spanked by some of these rice burners. I’m leaning towards the Cleveland over the Windsor due to the uniqueness of these cars that should deserve a unique motor. Since I can’t afford a 427 S.O. I think a Cleveland would be my next choice. And what is it that makes them have a different exhaust note than the Windsor’s when they are both 351 displacements? When I have the 68 Mustang out most people ask if it’s a Cleveland under the hood????

Sorry for the lengthiness…and thanks for all your input inadvance...

-Dawger

[Dwight]

windsor 408 fuel injected

Dwight

[lovehamr]

As a Boss 302 owner and 372ci clevor(Windsor block 4V Cleveland heads) owner I have to say that most of the Hype that you hear about the 4V heads being no good for the street is BS. If what you are looking for is a low RPM cruising engine then a stock W will do. If you want power then air flow is king and very few aftermarket W heads can stay with a stock 4V C's flow potential and the iron stock W heads are only good as boat anchors. Just as a measure, the intake side of my Clevor flows 335 cfm @ .700 and 28" of water. As to the question "How much power do you NEED" I'm afraid that I'm not much help there because I don't think one can ever have enough! LOL If your 68 Mustang runs good now, just imagine what it would be like with 1500 less pounds(as in a Cobra)! Woo Hooo!

my 2 cents, Steve

[Rick Yeager]

Obviously, I’m a Cleveland fan for the Cobras. My engine is in the shop due to sitting and my ignorance—not the type of engine

The Windsor or the Cleveland is a very good engine. All the data I have upon which to make decisions is based on what I have read and on the few people who have raced and driven the performance versions of these different engines. Granted this is limited and a little biased. Right or wrong this is what I think. For out and out racing the oiling system needs modification. Every engine of every brand does. I suspect the way most people on this forum are using Clevelands in Cobras the stock oiling system is more than adequate. The oiling issue is probably over played. The main bearing size in the Cleveland may be better than the Windsor. That is why Ford reduced the size in their racing blocks.

On the heavier Torino’s and Montego’s and even Mustangs the head choices bring valid arguments to the table. Some Folks on this Forum have argued that on the much lighter Cobras, the heads do not make much difference, like lovehamr, (Do the moderators know he has a stolen avatar??? ). I think that they are right—the different Cleveland heads do not make much of a difference on the little Cobras. My engine has a set of 4v open chamber heads sitting on it. But I have a 1970 set of stock 2vs and a set of the Australian 2vs with the closed chambers—have not felt a need to change.

No, Cevelands were never stock engines for Cobras. But in the early 70’s when ole CS, himself, wanted to update his personal Cobra, he put a Cleveland in it—not a Windsor or FE.

I occasionally wonder what it would take to make it a 408. Would the bottom of the cylinders have to be cut to allow for the larger crank and would the stock oil pan fit? What other changes would have to be made? Like Dawger, which head would be best on a 408? Aus Ford is selling affordable used Australian blocks with higher Nichol content. Would they be significantly stronger than the American ones?

Yeah, you can spend a lot more and have a lot more with a Windsor or a Clevor or an aggressive aftermarket based Cleveland but a basic old Cleveland can give a lot of easy maintenance power on a low buck budget. And besides, like Rdorman and DoubleR mentioned, they sound and look better too. Ha!!

Rick

[767Jockey]

All things being equal, a Cleveland will outperform a Windsor. Now, before all you W owners get your panties in a wad, the W is a fine engine. The problem with the Cleveland here is that it was only available for a few years. Ford made a decision, driven only by economics, that there was no need for two different small blocks, and for a number of reasons, and performance was definitely NOT one of them, went with the W. Now, there are definitely some great performance parts for the W out there, and you can make one hell of a fine W with enough $, just like almost every other engine. That being said, there’s just no substitute to great cylinder heads, and the C heads are head and shoulders above the W heads.

When Ford pulled the C motors from America, they kept on using them in Australia. The Aussies are some pretty sharp guys, and they have done an awesome job in developing the engines. Being down under and so far away from us, we had little knowledge of what they were doing with the engine until recently. However, what they’ve done with it is now more and more commonly known, and what they’ve done is nothing short of amazing. For about 10K you can build a 408” stroked C that will put out well north of 575 HP. They have developed some incredible aluminum heads for the engine, that not only move even MORE air than the infamous 4V Cleveland heads, but also keep up the air flow VELOCITY, which solves the Achilles heal of the C, which is low end HP and Torque. The exhaust ports on the Cleveland were poor also, the Aussies have fixed that as well. Look on the websites for CHI and AFD heads to see what I’m talking about.

Also, there’s a guy here in America who’s casting thick walled C blocks that will allow 460” Cleveland’s, and should allow pump gas streetable engines of over 800 HP. The heads on the C are essentially slightly smaller versions of the 460 big block head. Canted valve heads, which the C and the 460 have are always preferable to straight valve. Just as dollar for dollar you’ll always get more HP from a 460 than a FE (even though we all love the FE for it’s pedigree and correctness), you’ll likewise (dollar for dollar) get more HP from a C than a W.

With the new blocks coming out, or even with a Dart based Clevor, which is W block with C heads (like a Boss 302 on steroids), you can have a 460” small block with ungodly power, at hundreds of pounds less than the 460 big block. You just can’t make that kind of power with the W heads. Look on the MME Racing site ( MMERacing.com ) and look at the power and price of his Clevor packages. It’s just stunning the power they make, and compared to engine builders like Roush, they’re less money, and make FAR more power. How about a 427" engine making 675 HP for 14K? Not enough? How about 460" with 725 HP?

The Windsor is a fine engine, it’s just limited by the straight valve heads and can’t make the upper levels of power that a Cleveland can. Not a knock on the engines or a slam at anyone who owns one, it’s just the way it is. Hat’s off to the Aussies – they’ve done an AWESOME job of developing this engine.

As far as parts, everything is available. Just go on Summit or Jegs, and whatever you need is there. It’s not until you get to exotic stuff like Webers and Fuel injection that it becomes a bit more difficult. Even that stuff is out there, you just have to look a bit harder.

Cleveland or Windsor, either way you really can’t go wrong. I just wanted to let you guys know the Cleveland isn’t the dinosaur it’s made out to be. It’s probably the most technologically advanced of the four most commonly used Cobra engines right now. It looks great, sounds great, makes HUGE power economically, and weighs about the same as the W. What’s not to love?

[RACER X #99]

The reason Ford dumped the Cleveland was because of the poor oiling system. When the Nascar Ford guys started using Windsor blocks with Yates designed Cleveland heads they turned those engines into winners. There is no doubt the Clevelands work better at high rpms as the racers turn them to over 9,000 rpms. In real life on the street where most Cobras live, most well built Windsors will kick the Clevelands ass everyday and also the FE's.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

The reason Ford dumped the Cleveland was because of the poor oiling system. When the Nascar Ford guys started using Windsor blocks with Yates designed Cleveland heads they turned those engines into winners. There is no doubt the Clevelands work better at high rpms as the racers turn them to over 9,000 rpms. In real life on the street where most Cobras live, most well built Windsors will kick the Clevelands ass everyday and also the FE's.

Not with the Aluminum Aussie heads - the properly built Cleveland will walk away form the W. More torque, more HP, and lower in the rev range than the old style Cleveland's used to be. The old (and well deserved) knock on the Cleveland with regard to the poor low end power and torque are simply no longer valid. As I said earlier, look at the websites for CHI and AFD - the info is all there.

[RACER X #99]

You are buying into the advertizing hype and you are going to be embarrased by somebody on the street with a decent W. If your gonna track your car that's a different story.

If you are locked in on running Cleveland style heads than at least get yourself a good block such as the Dart or World Products four bolt main blocks.These just happen to be Winsdor blocks.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

You are buying into the advertizing hype and you are going to be embarrased by somebody on the street with a decent W. If your gonna track your car that's a different story.

I respectfully disagree. Your information is old and outdated. The original Cleveland head is old and a relic. The Yates head is not far behind. There are even more developments coming down the pike shortly. I'm glad you enjoy your W, and your loyalty to it is admirable. For me, I'll trust the physics and numbers on the canted valve heads. I'd encourage you to speak with the guys developing these engines and see the results they've had. You can start with Mark at MME, Dave at AFD, Scott Johnson at Reincarnation in Tacoma, and Jon Kaase as well. There's no conspiracy of lies, no advertising hype - it's all backed up by hard numbers and in car results. There are many more who can speak to you than these guys as well. As I said earlier, your information was definitely accurate at one time. It simply isn't any more. Enjoy your Windsor!

[jmarsey]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I just wanted to let you guys know the Cleveland isn’t the dinosaur it’s made out to be. It’s probably the most technologically advanced of the four most commonly used Cobra engines right now.

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I respectfully disagree. Your information is old and outdated. The original Cleveland head is old and a relic. The Yates head is not far behind.

Ok Jockey,

1. Which is it, a dinosaur or technological marvel?

2. Your opinion on the Yates is simply incorrect.

3. Although I can appreciate your enthusiasm for waving the Cleveland flag, making inaccurate assumptions will take away from your cause.

Build your motor and be happy!

John

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by jmarsey

Ok Jockey,

1. Which is it, a dinosaur or technological marvel?
It is neither. The old head had drawbacks for street use. It was great at very high RPM, and terrible at everything below. It was an on and off type of deal. This has been more than rectified with the new aluminum heads from Australia. Did this really confuse you? It would seem pretty straight forward.

2. Your opinion on the Yates is simply incorrect.
Perhaps I used poor language, my bad. What I meant was that the Yates heads serve only to amplify the problems of the original Cleveland heads. They make even MORE power at very high revs, and do noting to fix the lack of low RPM torque and Horsepower. If your racing, the Yates heads are great. On the street, not so great.

3. Although I can appreciate your enthusiasm for waving the Cleveland flag, making inaccurate assumptions will take away from your cause.
I wave no flag, and have no cause. I'm just trying to offer factual information to counter all the old information out there and have everyone know they have a choice. If after hearing this updated info they choose to go Windsor, so be it. I believe that this is the main purpose of this forum, the dissemination of information. Perhaps I'm wrong about that? I have said it many times - the W is a fine engine. I happen to believe that the new C heads are better. If you disagree, that's fine with me. Also I make no "assumptions", just talk to the people who have actually run new technology Clevelands in the past year or two, rather than people who continue to regurgitate outdated (although once accurate) evaluations from 1982. They'll tell you it's fact, not assumption.



John

Build your motor and be happy!
I am building it, and I AM happy. Hope you are too.
Doug

[fordracer]

Originally Posted by ENTDOC

351w is a me too motor. You can look at that one of two ways,either it is the best choice or simply the easy choice. Either way it is not a bad choice but somewhat boring.

Ditto, go with the Cleveland

[cobrarkc]

6 out of the top 7 motors in the engine masters series were CHI Cleveland head windsor blocks. Windsor heads can never out flow Cleveland heads! Compare apples to apples here. Either stock vs. stock or aftermarket vs. aftermarket. Just like the FE, Clevelands are finally getting the attention they deserved. The only advantage the windsor block has is that it is taller and can be stroked more. That is why the Clevor is the popular choice of the engine masters competitors. If you are going with stock heads go with the 4V Clevelands, in a cobra, in this lightweight car there is plenty of torque off the line and once you get above 3500rpms hold on!

[olddog]

I have never been convinced that large ports result in low rpm torque, as a universal constant. The old big block engines of the 60's had stump pulling low rpm torque, but quit breathing quickly due to tiny duration cams, giving poor Hp numbers. These were large port heads. Then there was the other side of the spectrum where rediculously radical high duration cams are put into these same engines, and then you get lousy low rpm torque and lots of high rpm Hp.

Secondly intakes can play a huge roll. Put a short single plane on any engine and watch the low rpm torque dissappear.

I suspect poor cam and intake choices gave the Cleveland a bad RAP on low rpm torque.

I guess I will never have the time or money to prove it, but I believe a Cleveland with moderate durration, high lift roller cam and the right intake manifold would pump out good torque from 2000 on up.

[jmarsey]

On the street, you will get your Cleveland spanked by the AFR headed Windsor.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by jmarsey

On the street, you will get your Cleveland spanked by the AFR headed Windsor.

The last thing I want to do is waste my time arguing about engines. However, I am curious - what facts do you base that statement on? Perhaps you're right and we're wrong. I'd be very interested in the reasoning for your position.

[joey_hv]

Gotta resurrect this old thread and hijack it.
I have a set of 4v Cleveland heads that need to be rebuilt. How much do you think I should start the bidding on ebay for them?