351 windsor heads on a 302 - info please

[347 Stroker]

Ok, I've been asking alot of questions and have been getting lots of great help, thanks to all! Well, here's another question. As some of you might know already, from my other questions, I'm building a 302 into either a 331 or 347 stroker, or might even build a beefy 302 and stay on the 'not so exotic' road since this is my first engine to build and will go into a '67 or '68 fastback. Well, my question is this: A friend has offered to sell me 351 Windsor heads for $40. They're bare, have been hot tanked, magna fluxed, and resurfaced. They look like new. He ended up using trick flow since his motor's pretty well built (it's in a '65 GT 350 Clone that's beautiful). So, I'm thinking with some port work and factory sized valves and good springs, they should be great for what I want to do, ie not a drag car, just a classic cruiser. Will they bolt right up? The heads are older, and my block is from a '91. I think they're completely interchangable back and forth. Let me know what you think, or offer any suggestions. I'm also on a budget. Thanks for your help!

[347]

What are your intensions for the bottom end of the engine?

[sharpe 1]

By the time you buy springs,valves, port, and assemble the heads you may find that a set of trickflow,or other aftermarket head may be the way to go.$$$$$$$$$$

[jmarsey]

347,

In a nutshell, sharpe1 has good advice. It sounds as though you are on a tight budget and need to make every penny count. There are a few things you have to do to adapt the heads which I won't go into. Also there are some considerations of port matching your intake manifold as well as a thermostat issue you need to be aware of. Along with head rebuilding costs, you would be better off looking on ebay or other sources for a nice used set of performance heads, gt40 or other. Guys are always upgrading. Some of the ford engine builders and speed shops on this forum may be able to help as well. I would question, in your application, if the stock 351 windsor head would make that much difference in power after all was said and done anyway. Take a little time and look around first.

John

[347 Stroker]

If I run a 351W intake, would there be a problem there? I've read about the coolant passages being slightly different, and the bolts being 1/2" instead of 7/16", I believe, but have read that there's shouldered bolts for that very application. Would it even be necessary to port 351W heads if being used on a 302?

[347 Stroker]

I forgot to reply to 347's question: I plan on leaving the bottom end as is, maybe add a girdle. It's a 2 bolt main, of course. If I do a stroker, I'll get forged parts, if just a 302, cast would be fine for what I plan on using it for.

[jmarsey]

Something like these if they check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33617

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Darrell;

Back in 1995 when building a 351-W for my 65 Fastback,I did basically what you are thinking about doing.....DO NOT DO IT......
Had my heads ported/polished/gasket matched for a song,then added screw-in rocker studs,good springs,guide plates and went one step further with 1.90/1.60 valves,by the time I finished I could have bought a new set of alum. Edlebrock heads complete.......My iron heads now flow about the same as the Edlebrocks out of the box,but you can take the Edlebrocks a lot further if needed and my heads are maxed out...........

Look at some of the Mustang sites and you can pick up GT-40 heads complete very reasonable and be better off in the long run.......

If not,save up for a set of alum. heads complete,right now they are going for as little as 1100 bucks a set.......

BTW; the windsor heads will bolt up to any 302,you also have to use a 302 intake,the 351 intake is too wide and will not work on a 302 block.....

David

[brainsboy]

You cant stroke a motor without increasing the head demand. If you plan on keeping the windsor heads I wouldnt even bother stroking your motor, you will have a better running motor with the 302 then you will with 347ci with stock 351w heads.
Assuming your friend has the "Good" 69-74 351w heads, they are still too restrictive. If your on a budget, skip the stroking and use that money to buy a set of aftermarket heads or ... If your wanting size that badly then I would start with a 351w instead.

Ben

[jmarsey]

stroker347,

You just got some really good advice..... seriously.

john

[347 Stroker]

Jmarsey thanks for the link. Thanks to everyone else also, I enjoy learning more about this sort of thing.
Ok, here's another situation. Suppose I just stick to a basic 302. Some friends who know a fair amount about building engines suggest I stick with a 302 (bored over to whatever it ends up being) for simplicity and not over complication since this is my first build. If I just stick with a 302 build, would the 351 Windsor heads be ok without any expensive porting or any serious valve work? These heads are the older ones, they have the tapered rocker studs with the slight shoulder, I believe. As I mentioned, the heads are bare, so they need to be built with everything. What kind of output could I expect with the 302 and 351W heads and a mild to lumpy cam? Approx how much would it cost to put decent components on the heads, ie springs and roller rockers? Will the older heads work with my '91 roller block? Are there any modifications needed to mate a 302 intake to the 351W heads?I'd really like to do a decent build while not draining my wallet, which I could invest in restoration. Thanks again fellas!

[HI Cobra]

Darrell,

Reread all those very informative posts and the first six
or seven sentences of your last reply, then let go of the
351W heads - you will be glad you did!

[PSB]

Darrell,

You are making a false assumption that 351W heads are automatically better than 302 heads. In fact, stock 87-93 5.0L (302) Mustang heads flow better than stock 351W heads. You'd be better off getting some used 5.0L heads from a junkyard than using the 351W heads. Neither one will flow enough to support a 347 stroker.

Since nobody answered your earlier question, a 351W manifold will not fit on a 302.

Pete

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Darrell;

All 302 intakes and I'm assuming an intake for a carb will work with 351 heads,as a matter of fact,from about 1980 or so,the 302 and 351 shared the same head,by that time Ford only made one small block head and used it on all 302s and 351s.....

You are going to spend more money building the 351 heads than you think and not gain as much as you think,believe me,been there,done that...........

If you already have a 91 roller block or at least shortblock,I would look for a pair of 90 to 95 302 heads that came on the GTs...These heads can be made to flow reasonable numbers for you purposes with just a little cleaning up of the exhaust and bowls..... The 90 to 95 GT motors had an advertised hp of around 225 to 250..... With a little exhaust port work and a little more cam,some roller rockers you could be at or near 300 hp....with a very dependable street motor that you will enjoy driving and give you plenty of miles of service....

I have seen these heads for sale for almost nothing from the Mustang guys upgrading to alum heads....Look around for a set,get the exhaust ports cleaned up (remove exhaust hump),add some roller rockers,get them shaved the minimum to make sure they are perfectly flat and get a good vavle job done to them and your ready to go.........

BTW; if you would like,I'll GIVE you a set of early 351 heads COMPLETE,just like when I pulled them off the motor,I think I have three or four sets in my shop,they are still there for a reason,i.e.,there are a lot better heads for the money out there.......

David

[Dennis Kelley]

sharpe one is right. by time you go through a set of cast iron heads you can buy new aftermarket. If you want to stay cast iron buy windsor jr, protopline ect. I have GT40 heads and have had several aftermarket aluminum. There is so much more in aftermarket heads for the same money. Just my opinion No stock cast iron head will flow enough to support the cams that are on the market now for a 302 and don't even think about a stroker with stock cast heads. Go to Air flow research's site and look at the article on all of the various heads for a 302 an then decide what you want the engine to do.

good luck

[347 Stroker]

David, thanks for your generous offer, I'd like to have them as 'memorabilia' but probably wouldn't use them as everyone seems to agree that aftermarket is the way to go. I'd love to get a set of AFR, but the price isn't so hot. It seems as though a few of you here like GT-40 heads, which is more in my price range. You guys are right on as far as the price of a rebuild for heads almost the same as new heads all ready to go, minus the headache. Well, in a few months I'll probably be looking for GT 40's if anybody has any or knows of anybody who's looking to upgrade, or of a place to buy them that has a good reputation.

[Jack21]

In days of old, when knights were bold.... '70's, early "Smog" motors' Ford guys would swap their 289 and 302 heads for 351W for bigger valves and better flow. That was then. (30 years ago)

Today, there are better ways of doing this. With a '91 roller block, you can get a decent set of late heads and build a nice carbureted or EFI motor.

Keep it simple for your first engine. There are enough ways of making mistakes with the simple stuff before you start playing mix & match.

[Rich C.]

I have done just what you want to do.All the others are correct.Don't try to do it.I spent about $750 getting the bare DOOe heads done.Another thing about those heads is they need at least hardened seats put into the exhaust side .I ported them my self(about 40 hours of work)then had 1.94 in. and 1.60 ex.(chevy) valves put in.Had the stud bosses milled and tapped for screw in studs.Had them milled (did end up with 9.5 cr).Another problem but not one caused just by old heads was I had to have the Performer RPM intake milled so the port roofs would line up.but anyone could have that problem.Its from the heads being milled so much that the head gets shorter.
The heads will bolt on with the shoulder washers.I have a 86 roller block.another potential problem with the old heads that I had is the possible old school machining caused the roller rockers to not line up on the valve stems(Left and Right that is).I had to use Isky adjustable guide plates.They are a P.I.T.A to adjust,but do fix the problem.
Also the push rods had to be very short to line the rocker tips on the valve stems.I had to get custom ones from crane.I think they were 6.150 long and about $150.But they line up !

So I fell into the old school trap of putting '70 351 heads on a 5.0 roller motor.

I wouldn't do it again.But I like you was on a budget and thought that was the way to go.So $1100- $750=$350.
I think I would save up alittle more and get aftermarket heads.

Oh I thought of another problem.The exhaust flange is kinda small around the port and the common 1 3/4 pimary header tubes will just bearly seal on the flange.you would have to use 1 5/8 headers.The aftermarket ones have a flat flange all the way on the exhaust side. You could run any size header.

As far as how they run,I don't know yet because I'm not done getting it into the car.I'll run them alright,but I think they'll be ok.I just wouldn't do it again unless you just want the experience of doing it your self like I do.
Rich

[347 Stroker]

Jack21, that's exactly what I was thinking: They did it back in the day, ao I can do it now. I guess what I didn't think of was the cost of head rebuild and new technology and improvements.

Anyway, thanks to all for helping me decide. It'll still be a ways off before I'm ready for the heads. I'm still trying to select the rotating assembly and find more quotes from reputable machine/engine shops around.

[Jack21]

347, I'm not saying the early 351W heads won't work on your 302. 30 years ago, that was the only option we had. And as Rich C. pointed out, it's almost more of a hassle than it's worth.

And as Rich C. learned, when you mill the heads, you also need the intake manifold surface on the heads milled the same amount, or the intake ports won't line up. And wind up spending more money on machine work than you would have by just replacing the heads with the right aftermarket ones and bolted them on.

Frankly, if it weren't for the availability of aftermarket parts, I wouldn't have built a Ford engine at all. My 351W has only the block, crank, and front timing cover actually made by Ford from the original motor.