363 vs 351

[007Roger]

Hello,

New to the forum.

Bennett Racing has a special Dart block, 302 based punched out to 363 CID. Here are the specs:

363 cid-545hp


-Bennett Racing Basic Dart Shortblock 363 cubic inches
-Custom Grind Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
-Canton 7 quart Oil Pan Kit
-ATI Harmonic Balancer
-Stage 3 TFS TW Cylinder Heads
-Roller Rockers & Hardened Pushrods
-TFS "R" Series Intake-Ported Victor Jr-Ported for Carburetor Engines
-Dyno Tested & Tuned

$12,995

This the ultimate streetable 302 based engine. It makes a whopping 545hp and 480 ft/LB torque on pump gas and is fully streetable.


From what I have researched, it is near impossible to get a 351 to make those numbers without a solid roller yet the Bennett 363 uses a hydraulic cam.


Is it possible to build a 351 (non-stroked) to produce these kind of numbers?

Could you stroke a 351 to 363 or there abouts and get these numbers?


Thanks

[LwCwb]

A 351 Windsor will go to 427 cubes using the dart Block, and I have heard of 351s making this kind of power, but Im not sure on the cam specs. The Roush 427R (351 based 427) produces 550hp and 535ft lbs, and it is still streetable. The current pricing for that is a tad above $13,500.

[Jim Downard]

Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't Coast High Performance have a 427W stroker that makes 550 hp AND about that much torque also for less money. I was thinking they were selling them for around the $10k-$11k mark. There's no substitue for cubes.
Jim Downard

[TerrysSPF]

With a deck height of 9.500 inches, Dart's recommendation of a max 4.0 stroke and a max 4.185 bore would equal 440 cubes. With the right parts, you could get WAY more than 550hp with a hyd. cam.

I know a lot of guys with 418's with 550hp built by Eric H. @ Performance Engineering. He also builds a mean Dart block 427 stroker that's closer to 600hp (w/ hyd. cam). Also check with Keith Craft. He does the best head work in the business and can build you a high HP combo for a very decent price.

[Tim Brewer]

I think if you talk to any other engine builders on this forum, you'll change your mind on that combo. I personally don't think that engine will be very streetable, and think you will hate it. It doesn't make sense to stroke a 302 like that for the street. Keith Craft has a 408/410 with 575 HP for $7300.00. You need cubic inches for good HP on the street. You could probably put the extra $6000.00 to use somewhere else on your car.Like the saying goes, "There's no replacement for cubic displacement"
Tim

[007Roger]

I haven't heard of a non-stroked 351 making any more than 450 hp and similar torque (without spinning it up) yet this 363 makes well over 500 hp. What are the differences here? Does an extra 12 cubes really mean almost 100hp?

[Woodz428]

You didn't list Bore and Stroke, with that many inches from a 302 block I am guessing that it is bored and stroked the maximum. I would think that it has an unacceptable L/R ratio for any long term street survivabilty. It would also seem there is a good chance that it may have a slight oil appetite. I would advise against it in a street car.

[007Roger]

I am unsure of the bore and stroke. The specs came off the website. I was wondering about oil consumption and the fact that this appears to be a rare engine combination. Either is it not that user friendly or too expensive for the bang.

I haven't heard of KC building one of these or any of the other top builders.

I wonder what KC thinks of this engine?

[scottj]

I would imagine it is a 4.125 bore and a 3.4 stroke. Remember, Dart makes the 302 block with an 8.2" or an 8.7" deckheight. Rod to stroke ratios and compression heights are no problem.

I know Keith builds a killer 380 cid engine based on the 8.7" deckheight 302 block.

If I needed more than 380 cid I'd go with the 351 based block.

Scott

[007Roger]

Keith Craft builds a "killer" 380 cid based on a 302 block?

What can you tell me about this engine? Whay kind of hp and tq?

[scottj]

Originally posted by 007Roger


Keith Craft builds a "killer" 380 cid based on a 302 block?

What can you tell me about this engine? Whay kind of hp and tq?

The combination I spoke with Keith about was an all aluminum engine for a dirt Late Model application. It was about a year ago and he had one in Wendell Wallace's Late Model for speed weeks in Florida. We didn't talk about HP/Tq numbers, mostly we discussed how Wendell liked the drivability, how it got off the corners, how it hooked up , etc. I presumed it was 780 hp or so, but it might have been more.

This doesn't specifically apply to a street combination other than to point out the fact that the Dart blocks gives a guy awhole lot of reliable combinations that aren't well known. You could build it up for any application you choose.
Scott

[scottj]

I miss spoke in calling it a 380, a 380 would be a 4.155 bore. The 375 has a 4.125 bore.

Here is an a thread where Keith refers to the 375 cid engine.

Originally posted by Keithc8


Thanks Gary for the complement on your engine. We try to provide as much perfomance as possible without giving up drivability. Most of these guys do not know that we build circle track engins that idle at 900RPM's and turn 8500RPM's and are pulled down to 3000RPM's. These engines are run all year long and the features are 100 laps of all out racing. It is dealing with engines like this not just drag engines that give us some of the information to build high horsepower engines that will be driveable. We are using some of the same camshaft technology in the Cobra engines that we have used hear. You put that together with better flowing cylinder heads and quality machine work and you have a very nice engine. Hope to see you soon. Thanks Keith

Originally posted by scottj


Keith,

Speaking of circle track engines; what size engine was Wendell using at Volusia? What heads are on it?

Scott

Originally posted by Keithc8


Wendell was using a 417C.I., 9.200 deck, Yates style SC1 heads most of the time. He installed a 375 the last night he was there to test and really liked it. It is built in a 8.700 block and we will probably try to get some more stuff like that done. He said he was not very good there and is not happy with his GRT dtuff right now. I think he is going to try one more car they have being built and see how it works. He knows that there is no one car that is good everywhere. He said that it is normally dry slick there which he likes. He does not like the hooked up hammer down stuff real well. He said they ran the **** out of stuff there this year. Good luck with the racing. Keith

[Hankcar]

Look at these
http://www.twminduction.com/v8_kits/v8_kits-FR.html
http://www.roushparts.com/pdf/402IR.pdf
http://www.roushperf.com/articles/News/402IR.htm

[Ant]

I wonder about the more cubes is better approach? It makes sense to have the most in a package, what are the Cobra race guys using, as most like me want to drive on the road to enjoy the $$$ invested in the car, and I dont mind a bit of race fuel going in but basically need to run on pump gas.

What about a nice 358, 9.2 deck alloy block, I dont know the internals, but I want something that will rev strong to 6500 - 7000rpm, maybe 393 to 408 cubes is ok, but big strokers dont like revving as most builders specify 5800 6000 rpm max.

[scottj]

Originally posted by Ant


I want something that will rev strong to 6500 - 7000rpm, maybe 393 to 408 cubes is ok, but big strokers dont like revving as most builders specify 5800 6000 rpm max.

My 434 is a pump gas motor. For the track I add 25% race gas to be safe. I turn it 7000-7100rpm with a solid roller. The nice thing about the having more cubes is that I can pull down to 2500rpm, so it is very streetable.

[Ant]

Thats combo seems to rev good at over 7000!

I spoke to a race engine builder today, might consider an 8.7 deck R Block and do the big over bore and try for a bit over 6 litre, this guy reckons 550bhp on 10.2comp not a problem will spin to 7500rpm..............might last if lay off the loud pedal.

I am not keen on going over 400 cubes so will see what happens, I think this has all been done before and there are many ways to achieve the same results, I wouldnt mind a modular 5.4 but apparently they dont go any better as far as hp but like revving, and the size aint going to fit in my car!

[sharpe 1]

You must have thrown reliability out of the picture???