351C or 351W

[Lawler]

I am planning my powerplant options for my cobra. I would like to install an EFI 351 and supercharge it. Any comments or ideas on this choice? I like the fuel injection for the reliability. Shooting between 400 and 500 hp.

[jetenginedoctor]

You'll be money ahead with the 351W. Back in the day, the 351C would get the nod because its cylinder heads flowed far better than heads for the 351W. However, there are plenty of options available for the W engine that just plain put the C motor to shame. That coupled with the variety of intakes available for the W makes it the easy favorite for almost all applications.

As far as EFI goes, are you looking for the ITB look, 4bbl style carb with matching throttle body, a Ford MPI style intake, etc? I specialize in engine control electronics and can point you in the right direction regarding the controls, but my suggestions will vary greatly based on what you state as your primary objectives with this induction system.

So, tell more about what means the most to you (looks vs performance) what style you like to look at, how the car will be used, etc.

BK

[Frank Messina]

No offense to anyone with a Cleveland, but the Windsor has benefitted from so much head development over the years there is really no reason to use a Cleveland today. You can easily make your numbers and much more if you want with a Windsor. Quality Roadsters makes a FI system that uses the Ford EEC IV computer that has gotten some great reviews.
Frank

[Mike Simard]

Another part that's harder to find if you use a Cleveland are headers, I'm not sure if there are any off the shelf headers for any Cobra manufacturer. If you did use a Cleveland you would get the nod for coolness, they still have a mystique about them.
jetenginedoctor, welcome aboard. I recognize you from corner carvers, you are the man! Please keep posting here and don't get sucked into spending all your time at some manufacturer specific site.

[Poolw]

Winsor is the number one leader. Check with Keith Craft Motors they have a link on this site.
Poolw

[1985 CCX]

C or W,

It is personnal choice, I have been in both and they are both strong running motors. Power is easy to acheive in both set-ups without SC and the extra heat it may cause. These underhoods do not spit out the heat all that well. I like the torque of the C myself but I am partisan.....

Go FE if you can since they are more authentic! Southern has a 406 FE rated at 435hp for 6k+ complete and that is not bad....
Jeff

[wtm442]

Aftermarket parts are RARE for the 351C. Stay with the 351W.

Where would you rather go on vacation .... Cleveland, OH or Windsor Canada?

[jetenginedoctor]

Originally Posted by Frank Messina

No offense to anyone with a Cleveland, but the Windsor has benefitted from so much head development over the years there is really no reason to use a Cleveland today.

Hmm. . . . I disagree.

One of the big differences between the C and W motors that lends them better choices for different uses is the main bearing journal diameter and connecting rod length. If you want to build a relatively low RPM engine (under 6000 RPM) then the Windsor is a good choice with its longer rod. However, with its larger main bearing diameter, oiling is a concern at speeds of 6000 RPM or greater. The reason being, the larger the bearing diameter, the greater the linear speed for the same given RPM. This means the oil shear speed is proportionately greater with the 351W engine compared to the 351C.

The 351C, having smaller main bearing diameter and shorter rods is a little better starting point for guys who want to build an engine to rev. Despite the far greater variety of 351W style cylinder heads, the offerings for the 351C (such as those from www.chiheads.com) are still WAY better than anything for the 351W. Don't forget that the C valvetrain is canted (correctly) such that the short side radius for both the intake and exhaust valves are far shorter and a larger radius. This makes for HUGE HP benefits, and is the basis for the TFS Twisted Wedge cylinder heads. The obvious difference between the C and the TFS-TW heads is that the C heads were designed from the very beginning to be a canted-valve cylinder head. The TFS-TW for the W is more of a semi-canted head, and suffers from premature valve guide wear due to the unbalanced valve stem loading.

Anyway. . . .

You can easily make your numbers and much more if you want with a Windsor. Quality Roadsters makes a FI system that uses the Ford EEC IV computer that has gotten some great reviews.
Frank

I've got a variety of alternatives for engine control that make the QR EFI system look quite modest.

BK

[jetenginedoctor]

Originally Posted by Mike Simard

Another part that's harder to find if you use a Cleveland are headers, I'm not sure if there are any off the shelf headers for any Cobra manufacturer. If you did use a Cleveland you would get the nod for coolness, they still have a mystique about them.
jetenginedoctor, welcome aboard. I recognize you from corner carvers, you are the man! Please keep posting here and don't get sucked into spending all your time at some manufacturer specific site.

Since when was being able to buy something off the shelf a factor that makes something "better?"

Come on, and you know this. . . man!

[jetenginedoctor]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

C or W,

It is personnal choice, I have been in both and they are both strong running motors. Power is easy to acheive in both set-ups without SC and the extra heat it may cause. These underhoods do not spit out the heat all that well. I like the torque of the C myself but I am partisan.....

Torque is more a matter of compression ratio and cam timing than anything else. I'm sure I can build either engine with equal torque just as easy.

Go FE if you can since they are more authentic! Southern has a 406 FE rated at 435hp for 6k+ complete and that is not bad....
Jeff

That's not a very authentic engine. To be "authentic," it'd need to be a side-oiler, and that one's not. Just the induction alone to be "authentic" would cost more than $6k. Also, just because that engine is "rated" at 435 HP, doesn't mean it's a safe bet that it actually makes it.

BK

[bamcoc5]

Midstates Shell Valley make and sell Headers for the Cleveland. I have a set. I am in the process of installing the CHI Aussie heads and the new Edelbrock Air Gap Intake. I don't see a problem with after market parts availability for the Cleveland. Don't forget the Pantera Group.

[COBRA406]

Good on Ya Brian,
Accurate, and well explained. Much info on the Cleveland is hearsay and
rumor, not fact. If you want HP/$ the Windsor is the probable choice. But,
if you want a true screamer, with "hold on to your hat response" above
3K, then I choose Cleveland. Plus, nothing sounds better than a Cleveland
at wot. As we speak, a new Cleveland block is being modeled up by an
FE guy over on the Cleveland forum. THere is lots of interest out there
and with the Aussies' love affair with the Cleveland, there are plenty of
aftermarket parts here and there available if one wants to pursue it. What
we need Jetenginedoctor is a good FI system for the Cleveland. Not for everyone, for sure, but these are mostly copycars anyhow.
Bob T.

[autoxmike]

Originally Posted by bamcoc5

Midstates Shell Valley make and sell Headers for the Cleveland. I have a set. I am in the process of installing the CHI Aussie heads and the new Edelbrock Air Gap Intake. I don't see a problem with after market parts availability for the Cleveland. Don't forget the Pantera Group.

I would love to hear how the new CHI heads work. I have a 408CI Clevor (Windsor Block, Cleveland heads) using the original 2V iron Cleveland heads and I have contemplated switching to CHI Cleveland heads.

I like the Clevor bastard engine. My Clevor stroker was built by my brother in 1992. At the time the selection of aftermarket heads was not what it is today. At the time it was a cheap way to get power from a SBF. It also looks more like a big block. And I hear that the Windsor block is stronger than the Cleveland.

[COBRA406]

Mike,
Clevor's are cool!! Unfortunately, the Streetboss and Trackboss intakes are
no longer made, that I know of. The best of both worlds, for sure. I don't
know, other than weight savings, if you would benefit that much just switching to the CHI's other than bumping your compression. A cam change
also along with the CHI's to a profile to take advantage of the closed
chambers, then pistons with the correct clearances, then money starts
entering the equation. Depends on what you are after, and assuming you
have open chamber 2V's now. Windsor's oiling system priorities are better
than the Clevelands, but even the 2 bolt Cleveland blocks will sustain big
HP. Hold on to that Clevor. Best of both.
Bob T.

[DavidNJ]

CHI has a revision of their 218 that is a 225. They also sell their own manifolds. CHI heads dominated the last small block (410) Engine Master Challenges and finished second in the first (366). Arguably (and there are lots of people who will argue) they are the best street SBF heads.

However, the Trick Flows, Edelbrocks (at least ported), and others are also very good. Most of the really trick SBF stuff (Yates, BT, CME) are race only $7000 and up heads. They, and even cast iron N1/N2 heads, require non-Windsor exhaust manifolds. Jegs sells a canted valve head that uses stock Windsor manifolds.

Most racing engines (all that I know of) use the 2.25" small Windsor main journal for less friction. They would use a 4340 or EN30B crank.

If you are planning to supercharge, you will need to go Windsor. I know of no off-the-shelf stuff to supercharge a Cleveland that will fit a Cobra. You could build a custom setup though; even using Rotrex superchargers.

Now, the bottom line. You aren't looking for that much power. A $8000 normally apirated 347 crate engine with carb or efi will meet those power levels. A blown 302 would probably be there also.

[KevinM]

Edelbrock's new Cleveland heads and RPM intake manifold show that there is still a lot of interest in the Cleavland. You can now get pretty much everything you need for about the same price as Windsor parts.

Kevin

[rdorman]

You can get 400 to 500 HP out of a 1 liter fuel injected supercharged motor so what difference does it make Shoot, last show I was at they had a turbo saturn motor making over 1000 hp... no juice. Pick what makes sense for you. Either can make that much HP without efi or supercharging... and efi systems don't have the edge like they used to... so long as max hp is a concern. Me, I like the cleveland. Aside from the good stock heads, a stock bottom end that will live all day at 7000rpm (pro stockers ran 10,000 with 'stock' crank and never broke them) with nothing but decent pistons, bolts and assembly, they also make a number of great heads for it. Everything from the 'I only read the Jegs catalog' Edelbrock heads to CHI, AFR, the 2V and 3V, even a four valve per cylinder double over head cam set (bring a BIG check book). The canted valve design has the leg up. Look at many V8 ford racing engines.

BUT, both make a great motor and at the power levels you are talking, either can do it in their sleep. I give the nod to the Windsor in the $/HP game, I give the cleveland the nod in the designed to run game... short lived as it may have been in the states. I also kind of like the ease in making a 427 windsor... give them a wink and a nod when they ask "Is it a 427?"

Lets see, Carroll put a 260, 289, 390, 427 side/center/low/medium/you name it, 428... in them so pick a motor and enjoy the ride! Me, I would just pick what makes sense to me. Mine came with a cleveland so that makes sense Just to through a wrench in it, a great motor today is a clevor.

This conversation is a lot like the bb vs sb or ford vs chevy... run what makes sense for what you are looking for

[jetenginedoctor]

Some of the statements in the above post are a bit misleading.

Originally Posted by rdorman

Either can make that much HP without efi or supercharging... and efi systems don't have the edge like they used to... so long as max hp is a concern.

Could you please elaborate on that? A carburetor can't touch a properly executed EFI system in terms of drivability, economy, OR power. Programmable engine management has come a long way in the past decade, but for the most part, the $250 Holley 4bbl carb you buy from Jegs/Summit today is the same thing you'd have bought 10 years ago. Sure, there are nicer carbs (Barry Grant "Demon" carbs being some of my favorites) available now that weren't around a few years back, but the point is that you get a lot more per $1000 spent on electronic engine controls than you do for the same money on a carbureted system.

I'd say carbs and EFI each has their place, but I wouldn't say that carbs are superior over EFI. Not even close.

Me, I like the cleveland. Aside from the good stock heads, a stock bottom end that will live all day at 7000rpm (pro stockers ran 10,000 with 'stock' crank and never broke them) with nothing but decent pistons, bolts and assembly, they also make a number of great heads for it.

Now, that's REALLY stretching it. First of all, if you spin a stock Cleveland to 7000 RPM you are almost guaranteed to have a bearing failure. Anyone who's been around and has built these engines to run at high engine speeds knows that you have to address the issue of the oil system priority NOT being the main bearings. Do a little searching around on the 'net' and you'll see what I'm talking about. That's just the main bearing issue, next is. . .

THE CRANK. The 351C cranks are pretty good, but don't bet on making one live at 10k RPM. If you de-stroke and zero-balance a 351BOSS crank, then you might see 10k without a problem, but don't bet on turning that 351C 2v Torino engine to 10k without some serious carnage. And then the issue of. . . .

PISTONS/RODS. If you're serious about spinning one of these (or any Ford production V8 engine) to 6k RPM and beyond with any regularity, you need to spend the money on the lighter pistons and stronger rods than what FoMoCo cranked these engines out with 30-some years ago. The stock parts will likely disassemble themselves in short order if you buzz them beyond that speed. The good news is that the stock valvetrain will float and wreck itself before you'll get that far.

My point? You're never going to make a "stock" 351C bottom end live at 10k RPM, no matter what rod bolts, assembly methods, or magic blessing stone you use to put it together.



Sorry for the hijack. I'd say "pick your poison," but at the same time warn you that you won't make either rev to 10k RPM. . . . . more than once.

BK

[rdorman]

You will get no argument from me on EFI's drivability, economy.. but power, yes. I have seen time after time where peak HP on either system is about the same. I don't think a carb is superior to efi, in fact the other way around. But, like my post said, efi does not have the edge it once had in terms of max hp, particuarly in the type of engines for which this thread is discussing.

7000, absolutely. Bot not as it comes from the factory. Like my post says, a well assembled bottom end with good rod bolts and of course no one would attempt that with stock cast pistons. At least, not more than once! A basic polish of the beams (which means they will need to peened again), rod bolts, decent pistons and a good balance and the cleveland bottom end will live at those R's.

I am familiar with the oiling issues, taking care of that is part of a "decent.. assembly".

No one expects a stock Torino engine to turn 10,000 rpm. But pro stockers ran cast cleveland cranks at those rpms for years upon years. Sure they where modified, what crank designed for an old american push rod v-8 would not have to be to live at those r's, but they where cast iron cranks from ford and they lived and rarely failed.

I suggest you go back and re-read my post. The only reference to 10,000 rpms was in regards to the crank. Again, they where ford pieces and not that I have gave a little more detail, hopefully you will see what I mean.

As for 7000 rpm, the cleveland bottom end will live just fine modified as I described.

Pushing the limits, sure, but it does work! The Boss crank was nothing but a high nodular iron cast crank. I spin mine daily to 6400 and after 18,000 miles runs great. The only reason I don't spin it higher is it wasn't built to run higher!

My point, I completely agree with your point, "You're never going to make a "stock" 351C bottom end live at 10k RPM, no matter what rod bolts, assembly methods, or magic blessing stone you use to put it together."

[jetenginedoctor]

Okay, this may be nit-picking, but let's look at the semantics here. . . . .

To most people, "stock" means as it was when it left the Ford/Chev/whatever production line. This would be an unmodified piece installed just as it was when it originally came off the assembly line.

In the context of your contribution, stock implies only that the part was a standard production piece, but not exclude a certain measure of alteration/modification. When somebody explains that they have installed "stock" rods in an engine, they typically don't mean that they've been polished/peened/bushed wristpin end/etc. Resized, sure. . . . new fasteners, we should all hope. A production crank that's had the counterweights cut down and knife-edged, zero balanced with ? hundred dollars worth of mallory stuffed in there, and de-stroked to give the rods a fighting chance of livng at 10k RPM isn't a "stock crank." Sure, that crank started out the same as the one in the old Torino engine per my example. But I think there's a world of difference between what the world considers "stock" and what you describe as "stock." I think the better way to describe what you're speaking of, would be to call them "modified production parts," and not simply a "stock bottom end."

Like I said, sorry to nit-pick. Not suggesting that you're being untruthful or anything, I just think that maybe you're description of the level of condition/preparation of "stock" production engine parts is a little broad.

BK