First start did not go so good.

[Xavier]

I frequent this site many times but this is my first post.

After over a year of building I got my first start for my 351w, an engine that has been sitting in my frame for over a year. The first start was very rough, it took a great deal of time to get it turned over, probably 5 to 10 minutes of engaging the starter and then laying off until it finally turned over. When it did start it sounded very throaty, deep and week - not hi reving at all, like I can stop the motor by hand if I wanted to. Finally it idled by itself in 10 minutes, I was happy so I did not pay attention to what eventually led me to even more concerns than happiness. Its totally different than the first starts I have heard, however. Idle was very slow and extremely loud (louder than what I have heard from other Cobras).

In addition, the headers began to glow orange up to the cylinder head. I mean it was just idling for 5 to 10 minutes. The radiator was very hot, hot to the touch and the cool flex hoses on both sides of the radiator were extremely hot. I was not running my fan because I thought it would not be necessary for the little bit of time it was sitting there. That and I needed to recharge that battery after all of the hard starts...The water temp gauge (mechanical) was very low at this time 140 degrees or so, but the headers were getting an orange glow (very low, but noticable) and I turned it off. The engine, all of it, was getting very, very hot. Side pipes turning gold near the header flange.

When it cooled off (and it took a long time) I checked my radiator fluid again, and noticed that all of my fluid was pulled from the over flow and my radiator still appeared to be 1" below the upper hose, this would explain the cooling problem. Although I checked before, obviously a great deal of air was trapped within the radiator much more than I ever experienced before. Maybe because of the angle? The manifold had been filled with radiator fluid of the same mixture and burpped, this was confirmed again when I opened the plug on the manifold.

So I started the engine again, and again it took it forever to turn over just to the point where you think that $250 starter is going to bite the dust. The engine only ran this time for about 5 minutes to see if I got the cooling problem firgured out, this time without the cap on the radiator just to see if it is flowing or not and it is difficult to tell. At this time I can tell my left side pipe has a rhythmic back fire to it, I go to rev the engine from the carb and the engine dies. As it dies a very slite puff of gas fume comes out of my carb and makes a pop noise, very slite but noticeable enough that you think I have more problems than answers...Again I put my hand on the water neck, and maybe its paranoia or just not being used to a metal readiator hose, but man was it hot to the touch. The water neck has no by-pass hose, which I see in this forum some say not to do, some say it does not matter.

So I am looking to see if I can get help from the experts to trouble shoot each problem one-by-one to see if I can resolve this myself. I think the two unrelated problems are the starting and the cooling.

This is what I can tell you;

I am running 91 octane on an engine with a 10.5:1 compression. An Edelbrock carb (I will find the definite CFM later) with 9psi of fuel going to it. Oil is all filled up (10w40) with no leaks of any sort with an oil cooler. I have no idea what degree thermostat is in the engine and the engine builder I don't think knows either - but it is there. All starts was with the air filter off just so I can see if the choke is functioning and it was getting gas. I have an MSD6AL with Accel 52202 distributor and MSD II coil. Radiator fluid was 25% to 75% water with red-line water wetter. Starter is a Powermaster rated at 13:1 max compression ratio.

Also, as rediculous as this may sound - is there a certain start up procedure that works better to get it started? I have the 140gph fuel pump on a manual switch, regulated. Turn it on first, do not pump the gas and then ignition? I just want to make sure I am not doing something as foolish as flooding the carb.

Thanks for any replys.

[Rwillia4]

Sounds like you had a bubble in the block which solved itself. but that is not the real problem. In any case keep feeding it water

The starting problem...is it hard for the starter to crank it over (assuming you have a good power source)? if so then is sounds like you have to much advance dialed in. It is hard to start because the starter can't overcome of the compression so as you wait the compression is slowly decreasing. Once/if started, this will make the engine run HOT and sometimes backfire at idle, it should be stronger at higher RPM (but I can understand not wanting to throw some revs thru it). I would suggest checking the timing advance.

here is a small text from the keith craft site for a common timing mistake.
"If a dial timing light is used, set dial on timing desired and set timing on ZERO mark on dampener. Or set light on zero and set desired timing on DAMPENER.
We have had people set the light on 34 degrees and time dampener on 34 degrees giving a total of 68 degrees timing. This WILL DAMAGE your engine."


If the starter is turning the engine without a problem then I would guess it is a fuel/air mixture issue... Like a gummed up jet after sitting for "over a year". This causes the mixture to run lean and thus the engine will run hot.


you said it sounded louder then others, where and what type of noise? I didn't read if you had good oil pressure... no oil pressure makes valve trains loud and noisy.

Good luck

[RedBarchetta]

A couple inputs:

1. 10.5:1 compression and pump gas. If older heads, probably not enough octane to dampen any detonation. Car will run hotter under detonation conditions.

2. Check for lean carb condition. Headers shouldn't glow red at idle.

3. Agree with previous post on perhaps running too much timing advance

4. Don't run Water Wetter with any anti-freeze. Either Anti-freeze/water mixture or Water Wetter/water mixture.

5. Motor was sitting in the chassis for a year? Did you pull the distributor and run a primer tool off the oil pump and pre-oil the bearings and valvetrain? How about spraying some WD40 down the cylinders? You possibly scuffed the cylinder walls on a dry start.

Hope you get it all sorted out.

[Barnsnake]

You didn't make it clear whether the starter was struggling to turn the motor over, or whether it simply took a lot of cranking before it fired up. The answer to that question would have a major bearing of the troubleshooting approach.

Some items to check:
Check the firing order. There are two firing orders possible on the SBF, depending upon which cam was installed.

Pull the spark plugs and see if any appear "unusual".

Disable the ignition and see how the starter spins the motor with the plugs out (and whether it shoots anything out of the spark plug holes.

Check the timing.

9 PSI sounds a bit high on the fuel pressure. Check with Edelbrock for the appropriate pressure. If the mixture is really rich (i.e.: flooding), it will heat the exhaust as you describe. The engine would probably die as soon as you moved the throttle and the accelerator pump shot in more fuel.

Air pockets in the cooling system are nearly inevitable at the initial startup, aggravated by a Cobra's low radiator position. Burp and fill, burp and fill....

Consider removing or replacing the thermostat since its age and temperature are unknown. A stationary car with no pulley mounted fan will heat up pretty quickly, especially with a "green" engine.

[Sydney]

I can help you a little with the Edelbrock carb. They hate anything over 6 psi. 5.5 is what Edelbrock recommends setting your regulator at. If you have 9 psi, you surely have been blowing fuel by the needles and seats and have been flooding the engine. Possibly a cause of the glowing headers, and the extra noise. Fuel still burning as it's leaving the heads.

You probably have fouled the plugs pretty bad. They should be checked and probably be replaced before trying to start again. Don't ask me how I know all this. Depending on what size your carb is, I might be able to help you a little with jet and metering rod suggestions. I'm still playing around dialing mine in with an A/F analyzer to get it perfect. Hope that helps a little.

Sydney

[Xavier]

Thanks everyone for the feedback thus far;

Let me answer some questions for the comments that were made;

- Yes, I prelubed through the distibutor to pre-oil bearings and drive train through the oil pump as I have read so many times.
- According to my Autometer oil pressure gauge - 0 psi at start up and in idle.
- The starter. I do not know specifically what you guys mean when you ask for starter problems. What I can tell you is it sounds like it is building up to the point in which the engine finally kicks over. Its sounds like the starter is engaging, I am holding the starter in. Holding it in, and then for a good thrity seconds until when I release it I find out to my surprise that the motor is independent. But you would never know otherwise because the engine sounds the same with and without the starter running, it really never builds up to that "I am runnning happily" RPM sound. Make sense? It sounds as though the starter is building up for the engine to finally decide it can do something. I have no doubt though that the starter can not take this for long.
- The cylinder heads are brand new Dart One Pro.
- The PSI was given to me by the engine builder whom said to run it at 9 to 11psi on 91 octane gas. California gas makes a difference versus midwest gas?
- Noise. I meant that the sound through the side pipes was much deeper and throatier - like I was running 10" dia. pipes at 2 RPM off of a diesel truck. Not engine noise, but exhaust noise. The damn exhaust noise is so over bearing I could not hear the engine. Maybe it sounds bad, but I would never know. I think it is a case of a very bad idle and an engine which can not sustain itself.

Thanks for the replys. It sounds like a carb tune up and timing is what is suggested.

[Clois Harlan]

I assume you are just running your headers and not your side pipes which might account for the extra deep noise. When your engine builder built the engine did he dyno it? I understand what you are saying about California gas vs midwest gas because your gas has more oxygen in it to aid in low emissions. But, I still think you are running to much fuel pressure. It also sounds as though your timing is to far advanced which will cause it to run hot.

Here is what I would do if it were me: Put a charger on your battery to make sure your battery is putting out a full charge. Double check your wiring after you find Top Dead Center on your #1 cylinder. Second I would back the timing off a few degrees and with the key on I would dial my fuel pressure back to about 6.5 pounds. Then replace all my plugs and set their gap at about .038-.042. (this is my preference some like their gap a little wider). Then I would fire it up and double check my timing with a good light. Keep your RPMS at about 2000 while it is warming up until it will idle (I know your cam has been broken in already).

Let us know what you find out today.

Clois

[rblong]

You have no oil pressure?

[Burgs]

Timing is off! Hard starting, running hot, idles ok but rough at higher rpms. You need to check/set your timing!

[J Persons]

As others have said, check your initial timing, try 10º to 12º BTDC, and lower the fuel pressure to around 6 or 7 PSI. If you have 0 oil pressure aty idle, shut it off immediately! The oil pump driveshaft may have pulled out of the oil pump.

[Clois Harlan]

I meant to bring the oil pressure up as well. Very important to have oil pressure! Are you sure you have your remote oil cooler plumbed correctly?

Clois

[Burgs]

Originally Posted by Xavier

- According to my Autometer oil pressure gauge - 0 psi at start up and in idle.

You should probably get that squared away,... right away!

[J Persons]

Burgs, that's a mighty appealing avatar you have there!

[dlampe]

A couple thoughts, make sure your engine block is grounded very well. That can drastically effect how your started turns over. The timing is off. I think that would account for almost all the problems you mentioned. Did you say you have not oil pressure at idle? Is your gauge mechanical or electric? Unfortunately, if you have run the engine with out oil pressure long enough to heat the enigine up, you might have toasted some bearings.

[496fe]

Just grab the distributor and turn it a good 1" counter-clockwise. If that doesn't start, turn it the other way. Once it starts, move it around to where it runs best. This will give you a running engine so you can use a timing light.

If it still won't start, you (or builder?) need to go back and check cam timing, firing order, valve lash, etc, Getting an engine from a professional builder in this condition is making me nervous.

Good luck,

Brian

P.S. Please stop grinding the starter. You cannot imagine the damage it's causing. When it starts, run it for 15-20 minutes at 2,000 RPM or higher to break in the camshaft and check for oil pressure, leaks, etc..

[ENTDOC]

agree with Dean,check the ground and recheck it. This may be the problem with the starter,not of course with the other symptoms.

[Rwillia4]

Concur, no oil pressure is the first thing you want to solve.

To prime you oil pump (cheap method with donor distributor):
1 Obtain old distributor
2 Disassemble distributor until you just have the shaft
3 Obtain power drill with power source
4 Stick the rotor cap side of shaft into drill chuck and tighten
5 Remove current distributor (make note of what angle it is installed, this is what you have to retard/rotate to decrease your advance, I can't remember which way is less advance as I usually have my eyes looking at the crank with the timing light... I'm sure someone will know and inform us all)
6 Stick the other end of the shaft/drill combo into the distributor hole
7 Rotate the combo until the shaft seats
8 Apply power to the drill
9 Have your wife/girlfriend/dog/useless buddy who drinks all your beer,watch the oil pressure gauge to make sure you have pressure, they can indicate this with a boob flashing/bark/or unexpected trip to the store to restock the frig (at this point it doesn't matter what the pressure is, we are just making sure it is sucking from the pan). No oil pressure go to the bottom step 99.
10 If you have pressure reassemble: put the working distributor back in the hole in at the same angle.
11 Don’t tighten it down just yet. You want to be able to rotate it with a little resistance
12 Get a timing light and the same help you have from before (rover won’t work here)
13 Connect the timing light the #1 plug wire and put your eyes and the light on the crank. If your timing light can dial in advance, set it to zero.
14 Have them crank the engine, if it starts make sure you have oil pressure (if is doesn’t rise in a few seconds stop the engine).
15 You at the same time have the timing light in one hand and your other hand is on the distributor.
16 Rotate the distributor until the TDC mark lines up with the hack in the block. The engine should have started. If you can’t find the mark and the start is not freely spinning the engine chances are you have to much advance.
17 Dial in the amount of advance you want and tighten down the distributor. I would give you a number but every engine combination is different, call your builder and see what he recommends.
18 RECHECK the timing once the distributor it tight, it can take a couple of tries to get it at the right spot.

99 If you had no oil pressure indicated at step 9 chances are your pump has lost its ability prime (suck oil up from the pan). Everyone has an idea of how to get it primed…pour down this hole… I have never found a good one that always works. A way that will work but is a pain in the a$$ is to remove the oil pump and pack the pump area with a thick lubricate (I use petroleum jelly, not sure if this is the best thing). Reassemble and back to step 6. You are thinking when I put the engine to bed it worked fine…it was but as it sat all the fluids slowly drained back into the pan including the oil that was in the pump. Now with just air in the pump area it can not build up enough head pressure to suck the oil up from the pan. Once it has oil primed in it, it will work fine.

Hopefully, no damage has been done so far. If you don’t have a magnetic oil plug now it the time to put one in. Any metal that was “removed” will hopefully get suck in the filter or attach to the magnet, which you clean off at oil changes.

Keep us updated

[elgecko]

First thing....Do something about that oil pressure !
Pull distributor and put the drilll with oil primer rod to the oil pump. pump that puppy, oil pressure will show up as it is spinning.
I would not attempt to start till oil pressure is corrected,
Dave

[Xavier]

Okay everyone here is an update, thanks again for all of your help;

- Again, I used the oil primer drill meneuver, as I did before starting the engine, except this time I actually had someone look at the gauge while doing it. PSI sits at 0. I have an Autometer mechnical gauge, nothing but an SS line going to it. Took off the line thinking maybe a bad gauge, nope, no oil pressure. Made sure the line was not clogged and I blew air through it to the engine with no problem. This line is coming from right behind my fuel pump block-off plate. I am using the drill in a counter-clock wise motion, same as my distributor.

So before I pull the pan off as RWillia4 suggested above, I want to make certain there is no other remedies as I do not want to get over my head pulling this thing apart and finding I can not get it together again.

[rblong]

Drain your oil and see of there is any metal in it. If it has actually run as long as you say and there was no oil pressure it probably damaged bearings.

Sorry your having these probs.

B