Engine Masters Challenge, CHI Heads, and Cobras

[DavidNJ]

As already covered in another thread, CHI headed Ford SBCs won 4 of the top 5 and the overall top position in the Engine Masters Challenge. As ManOWar has said, the winner used a World block.

And all used CHI heads. And maybe half the total entrants also used the CHI head. However, there doesn't seem to be a rush to this Clevor combination here.

Intakes are not a problem, as CHI provides them. They also provide a Windsor water passage adapter. Exhaust would probably have to be custom.

My question is: why hasn't anyone considered this combo? Because of the exhaust issues? Because the cost (aftermarket block and $2500 heads) approaches a low-end FE? Because 530-540 hp average from 2500-6500 with a 600-680hp peak is too much for street driving in a 2500# car? (Although CHI has versions for smaller displacement). Because none of the major Ford crate engine manufacturers offer a CHI headed engine?

Thanks,

David

[turnpike boy]

In a word - momentum.

Kinda think that Windsor builders have gone to the very prevalent, very Typical Heads out there - AFR, Edelbrock, TFS, etc. - simply because they are a known commodity. CHI is a new kid on the block; just haven't really had the exposure the Typicals have. Clevors have been around for a looong time, but pretty much got knocked off the block by the advent of all the good aluminum heads.

CHI, being aluminum and excellent, may now see some intensifying interest. Ain't no way they will ever replace FE's, obviously, and for street cars they've got a tough row to hoe against damn good heads that cost 1/2 - 2/3 as much and come pretty close, output-wise. Race cars? - 'nother matter altogether.

[Manowar]

David,

That's something we here at World have wondered too. There's also a near-nonexistant response to our aluminum block and head announcement I posted a few days ago.

I'm not sure about all Cobra chassis designs but one issue I can imagine is fitment in certain cars. I know that "Cobra Jeff" here has a Cleveland or "Clevor" in his ERA so it can't be too much of a factor. Another possibility is the height of the CHI intake, especially with a .250" taller 4500. On Windsor-style heads, the CHI is 1.5" taller than a Vic. Jr. and 1.125" taller than a Super Vic. Only a modified scoop will work on a Cobra and many owners may be reluctant to do so.

A related issue may be the fact that Jon is a "one-man shop" and makes very small volumes of castings per month.

We have built and tested a "Clevor" here with CHI's heads on our 9.5 deck Man O'War and it made an easy 625 at 460 inches with the wrong pistons. We will build this crate combo when refined, I'm told. See pic below.
As a side note, World is casting the CHI intake for our Windsor-style heads with availability in the Spring.

I would think that these heads (or our brand-new 6-bolt heads with LS-style ports) on our aluminum 108Lb. block would be very desirable for Cobras or GT 40's. I don't think price is too much a factor here.

[olddog]

Manowar,

Here's some honest feedback from my personal perspective. I do not pretend to speak for anyone else. Nor do I intend to put down or insult you or the product.

The main things that attract me to a small block is weight and lower costs. Yes they will turn higher rpm, but for me that just means a higher likelyhood of total distruction if anything lets loose. So cost and weight is it. Maybe fuel mileage, however I would call that icing for the cake. Why would I want to pay $4500 for a block that might save another 75 lb tops. Hell, all I got to do is cut back on eating and I can loose that much myself. When you are looking at FE prices, why not just put a FE in it, as it will be worth more when your done. There are still thousands of decent low dollar Ford small blocks out there.

To sell me that block, you would have to prove to me that there is value their over all other SB and FE choices that makes it worth every penney. I'm not saying that the value is not there, but I do not see it, as yet. I understand you can get FE sized CID, but I can find FE blocks and do a lot of work on improvements (oil system and such) for that kind of money. It will weigh more, but the car will be worth more too.

There may be some racing applications that the rules force people one direction of another, but for a street Cobra, I have many engine choices.

I do understand that there are lots of costs to getting a new block to the market. I also understand no proffet and you go broke. Hopefully there are people out there that want that block, but you may want to explain or point out where the value is at.

[Manowar]

olddog,

Absolutely no insult taken and I really appreciate your personal feedback.
The points you raise are completely valid. A diet beats $4500 any day! The great thing about this forum is the diverse group that contributes here.
There-in is the extension of your comments.
The block (and engines) we are offering are designed to appeal to a broad spectrum of users. You apparently desire a street application and the cost involved plus the weight savings are of no benefit to you. Which is totally valid. I can't "sell" you one. (Maybe not even give you one!) Your comments about FE power and percieved value are also on target. Re. your thoughts about "turning higher RPM... and total destruction"- We test our street engines to 6500 and warranty them for two years. (Drags to 7200 but no warranty).We make sure nothing "lets loose" 'cause it would cost us money. We build 450 engines per year-the math is painful..
Having said all that, I know many Cobra and a few GT owners who just live for the eye-popping appeal and the "look how much I spent!" of aluminum parts, braided hoses and polished components of every type-regardless of cost. Their only requirement is to exhibit.
There are a few who truly enjoy the dynamics of a car built to thrill with speed and handling. Open track cars, autocrossers and drag racers-they may find more cause to investigate our parts, and they are here on this forum too.
As you imply, there are only two reasons to have aluminum blocks. Weight savings (provided your application requires lightening or balance adjustment)- and wow-factor. It's well known that aluminum blocks of the same design as iron do not make more power. (However, a blocks truness can add 20HP as Joe Sherman taught us at Engine masters) The introduction of our new cylinder heads will show new power gains but that's a story for another day.
Drag racers find a tenth or two (which is valuable to them) with a 100 lb reduction. Bill Laskowsky has run our iron version of this block at 2800HP with a 42 psi blower to a NMRA Super Street Outlaw, 10.5" tire class record 188mph. If this aluminum block can "only" handle 1800HP, we'll be happy.
Open track racers desire lightness not only for better lap times but for the corresponding decrease in brake sizes, wheel weights and chassis gusseting-thereby further reducing weight.
We've got sprint guys, drag racers, "Silver State" unlimited speed crazies, custom and rod builders and two LSR guys showing interest in this block.
Our desire here is to inform the Cobra and GT owners-if their interest lies in an alternative block or crate engine choice, we're it. This thread about the CHI "Clevor" combination is an example of how we're trying to give the market what it may want.
But olddog, I've found the real reason I can't sell you our block-that GIGANTIC Roots blower in your gallery! How do you get that under your hood scoop?

[Jac Mac]

Given the thoughts in the above posts I wonder if there is enough demand to build heads/intakes/camshafts of FE configuration on the Windsor 9.5" Block with raised port layout which would give the a windsor an outside appearance of being an FE from the outside/top. ( IE A FE Head with Windsor bore spacing & material added to creat extra depth in the head casting to allow for straighter port runners and allow FE covers & intake manifold to fit when bolted to the 351 9.5" block. If the head castings were shuffled around dimension wise existing FE manifolds could be made to fit.
I remember ? Paul Bedouin? was using adaptors that allowed the use of cleveland intakes on his prostock FE motors a few decades back.
Hope I have not blown the cover on anyone already on this track, just something I would like to see happen.

Xmas cheers
Jac Mac

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Manowar

You apparently desire a street application and the cost involved plus the weight savings are of no benefit to you. Which is totally valid. I can't "sell" you one. (Maybe not even give you one!).

Oh you can definately give me one. Gee, I would even pay $1000, but not $4500 for my purposes.

Well the block looks like it is definately much more beefy than a factory block, and I have seen pictures of 5.0 blocks pretty much split in half. I see value there. I also like the much heavier main bearing set up on this block, which is definately a Windsor weak point. If I was going to go dry sump, it would save money there, but I'm not planning on it. I was hoping you were going to tell me that there is enough room to internally ballance the crank, as externally ballanced engines give me indigestion. If I were you, I would talk up the fact that aluminum is a much more repairable metal than cast iron. No rust would be a selling point, too.

No doubt that for certain types of racing this block would be the cat's meow. However from my perspective on a Cobra build that level of money would be better spent on a FE - which is a personal opinion. More power to anyone who uses this block, as I think polished up it would be a thing of beauty.

Originally Posted by Manowar

But olddog, I've found the real reason I can't sell you our block-that GIGANTIC Roots blower in your gallery! How do you get that under your hood scoop?

Well I just tucked it back under my work bech today. I grabbed it off of a 318 detroit my brother-n-law was junking. I actually have no use for it, but I think it would make an awsome leaf blower mounted on my garden tractor.

[blykins]

olddog, if I understand you right, you don't need "room" to internally balance an engine. The balancing is done by drilling/adding weight to the crank....and weight matching the pistons & rods. The block itself has nothing to do with the balance of a reciprocating assembly.

[Manowar]

olddog,
I AM going to tell you that they're internally balanced, as all our crates are. Sorry I didn't think to mention it.
blykins has it exactly right, the block doesn't affect the balance. There IS room in our blocks for stroke: 4.00 in this 9.5, 3.47 in our 8.2. In the iron version we use a 4.250 for 460 inches. This room comes from using the 351 oil pump and distributor location in our casting.
You're right about splitting the OE, they like to go vertically from the main saddle to the cam tunnel on the front or rear bulkheads. Sometimes further back. Our bulkheads are nearly twice as thick, so the iron weighs more than OE or some other aftermarket blocks. That's how it lives at 2800 HP.
The aluminium version has webs in the valley and stiffening ribs on the rear bulkhead around the crank journal / rear main. They are visible in one of the thumbnails I posted on the Advertisers Forum.
Well it won't rust but I hope I'm not asked to polish them! Actually, you can't believe how beautiful the casting is up close-very fine texture 357 T6 not coarse at all.
I'm contemplating a swap into my ERA when production gets going. To replace my uh-Side Oiler...

[olddog]

Originally Posted by blykins

olddog, if I understand you right, you don't need "room" to internally balance an engine. The balancing is done by drilling/adding weight to the crank....and weight matching the pistons & rods. The block itself has nothing to do with the balance of a reciprocating assembly.

I understand that mallory metal can be added, but I was under the (mistaken apparently) impression that the short 8.2 deck did not allow enough room to internally ballance the 289/302 engines. Not much room to make large diameter counter weights on the crank with the short rods. Maybe I have not been paying enough attention, but I cannot recall any advertising of internally ballanced 8.2 deck cranks. But I stand corrected as it is apparently done. Thanks for letting me know.

In general I find advertising for performance parts less than affective. Fact is I have searched for hours on many web sites and rarely get to the meat of anything. Maybe I'm a poor searcher, but I kind of get the impression that they do not want to give any information out. They want you to call and talk to someone.... and give them your name, number, first born. I don't like to use someones time unless I am ready to buy, as time is money. So I stay out in the cold a lot.

[olddog]

Thanks Manowar for all the info. Glad I spoke up, as I learned a few things.

If I were you, I wouldn't let the period correctness police hear your plans on the side oiler swap. I hear a few officers hang out around here.

[Manowar]

My pleasure, olddog, very nice to chat with you.
You are absolutely right about the preference police-I am NOT trying to start yet another BB /SB debacle, Brent and Ron would kill me.
I truly love my FE but these things are very hard to resist when you see them everyday...
Check our sites and see if they meet your criteria-enough content to inform without the pressure of contact. Your opinion and any other CC members' is valuable to me as I construct and edit both sites. PM your thoughts anytime.

[turnpike boy]

M.O.W., love your website but conspicuously absent is/are price info on your stuff.

[Manowar]

turnpike,
Au contraire!
World Products makes the castings. Bill Mitchell Hardcore Racing Products (our associate company, both owned by Bill) assembles the crate engines from these castings and sells to the public. Clear as mud huh?
The pricing is on www.theengineshop.com which is a link at the bottom of the homepage of www.worldcastings.com.
Thanks and please go look.

[olddog]

theengineshop is a much more detailed site. I never noticed it on the other site - told you I was a poor searcher.

Wish the site had the flow numbers for the heads, so I could add them to my engine dyno program.

[olddog]

I noticed this before, you offer a 9.2 inch deck - sort of between the 302 and 351. What is this used for?

[KevinM]

olddog,

Eagle makes internally balanced cranks from 3.000" to 3.400" if that is what you are looking for.

Kevin

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by olddog

I never noticed it on the other site

Yeah, me dos. Thanks, M.O.W. - guess that I shoulda looked a little harder.

[Manowar]

Originally Posted by olddog

I noticed this before, you offer a 9.2 inch deck - sort of between the 302 and 351. What is this used for?

We used to cast an 8.7 and 9.2-both have been discontinued for lack of response. We still have about 25 9.2's in both main sizes which is why they're still on the site. We now only cast 8.2 and 9.5 in iron and aluminum.
Those were original Ford deck sizes, but I'm not sure which vehicles they were in. I think the 9.2 was used in passenger cars and possibly the Pantera, which had Cleveland heads.There are many more Windsor experts on the forum than I.

[Manowar]

Kevin,
Eagle makes our 3.47" stroker also which takes our 8.2 out to 371.