289/302 engine builder recommendations? Go crate?!?

[Dangerous Doug]

Just got my quote back from a local builder on my 289, and the quote looks extremely high to me ($7600 for a roller cam long block assembly, using my 289 core with a stock stroke). Target hp was 400. $3500 of the quote was for 35 hrs for labor (magnaflux, line bore, bore & hone, head work...)

I'm looking through the web and I'm finding complete engines for $7500 (though they are in the high 300's and not quite 400 hp, but they are complete flywheel to carb/ignition...), in some cases 347 strokers. I can get a 345 hp Ford crate for less than $4k.

In any event, I had thought that having a rebuildable core would save me some cash, and in the interest of domestic tranquility I'm trying to keep my Cobra build from spending out of control (pun intended).

So, recommendations from the rest of you? Go with a Ford crate engine? Find another builder? Any comments on Proformance, Gessford, Keith Craft, et cetera?

The floor is now open. Love to hear from you.

[lineslinger]

If you want quality work at a fair price send me a PM and I can talk to you about a builder in my area who is at the top of the ladder. You will need to give him exact specs as to what you are looking for and he should be able to give you a quote that works for both of you. He is considered one of the Ford gurus in this area.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Doug;

Unless you plan on doing some serouis racing, I think you would be just fine with a 350 hp. or so crate motor for the price........and even if you plan to race "a little", 350 hp will do a lot more than you would think............

Having a 'rebuildable core" is not always the least expensive way to go as you have found out........depending on the age and condition of the core, a lot of high dollar machine work may be needed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just for the heck of it, I pulled up Keith Craft's site here, he offers a 306 cu.in/375 hp/375 torque, complete with carb/oil pan/distibutor/flywheel, pretty much everything ready to install for approx. $5,500.00..............I'm sure there are other vendors that do similar engines, I'd check them out if I were you...................

David

[Dangerous Doug]

Any experience with any of the following engine builders?

coasthigh.com (Coast High Performance)
fordcobraengines.com
proformanceunlimited.com
keithcraft.com (so far, this one looks like the best bang for the buck)

DD

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I have only bought parts and pieces from KC and had them do some machine work for me,happy with the service and the price..... I build my own engines........

David

[Dennis Kelley]

7600 seems high to me. I would wait and see what the new Ford crate with the Boss block is going to cost. That will get you a much better foundation if you want to go larger. I did the machine shop rebuild of a late model roller block and added AFR heads cam ect. I've done 298 rwhp and have about 4200.00 dollar in the motor: however a lot of the stuff (valve covers,intake, dist, bellhouse ect) came from another motor. Good luck. I've heard good thing about Keith Craft also but know personal experience.

later dennis

[Cashburn]

Are you SB-100? Does this factor into the engine selection at all since you live in Kali?

[Dangerous Doug]

There are two ways to register in CA: SB-100 and by the year of the engine.

I purchased a 1965 date-coded 289 short block for rebuild, intending to register by the year of the engine. (Side note: there is no VIN number on the block). When I saw the quote come in at $7600 today I was pretty astounded as this was for a long block assembly---a price I would expect to pay for a complete, running engine.

I liked the idea of using a vintage block and a local builder (hot rodder with a great local reputation), but, uh, not THAT much...

[jarendall]

You may want to consider the Engine Factory in New Jersey, they build a very good engine for the price

[Burnd]

Squeezing a "legitimate" 400HP out of a little standard bore 289 means someones putting in some serious mods. I did see the word "heads" mentioned in your inquiry and they can get a cash register ringing real quick too. I think your going to have to spin that thing quick and high to get 400HP which means cam, porting, heads, headers, flo and decent aspiration. If you take out the number "400" and put in a reasonable 250/300HP, I'll bet the price could drop right quick. Labor sounds a bit high to me for a rebuild by about a grand but you're dealing with a CA custom hot rod shop and he's gonna make a living CA style. Components like a steel crank; high end rods, good quality slugs, carburation, etc. preferred for a "legitimate" 400HP SB motor that will "stay together" are going to run the price up. If you think he's expensive then your going to recoil in shock and horror if you call George Gessford or some of the other builders for a price. BTW: Gessford does top quality work but my first quote from him on a BB was over $27,000 and I was expecting around 18K. Keith Kraft built mine, and it's a screamer but it still cost me around $16k (with "MY" block ) when all was said and done. I chose to pay EXTRA for H-Performance parts (not labor) to insure the the motor stayed together under duress. I like duress. Craft did a good job for me but there are no free rides. Here's some numbers to give you a base line:

(1968 427FE standard bore block - MINE):
Block prep (bake, tumble, magnaflux and chase all holes) - $120.
Bore & Hone with torque plates - $250.
Line Hone Block - $120.
Square Deck Block - $120.
Custom oil galley mods (grind/drilling) - $60.
Passage cleaning, plugs, paint - $80.
Cam bearing install - $40.
Balancing - $175. + $75. per piece mallory (used 4) = $475.
Intake Port Matching - 180.
Short block assembly with spec sheet and cam shaft degreed - $400.
Complete engine assembly for Dyno Testing - $1000.
Thats $2,845. in "Machine Shoppy" stuff & NO parts.

Serious money in parts:
Stage ll Aluminum ported Heads - $2500.
T&D Rockers - $925.
Lunnati Rods - $900
Steel Crank, pins, slugs, rings - $1900.
Cust Solid Roller Cam / S-Lifters/Pushrods -$690.
Blue Thunder 2x4 plus twin 750 holleys / linkage - $1600
Water pump - 160
HV Oil pump - 60
Billet timing Set - 200
SFI Certified Damper - 300
MSD stuff - 329
Canton T-Race Pan - 289
Valve Covers - 160

Thats $10,000+. in PARTS not including Prep work and I'm not finshed. Dip Stick, Tube, Plugs, wires/ gaskets, Filters, Lines, etc. that you can add to this list. I paid $1500 for my block 2 yrs ago. There was shipping, dyno runs, tuning, jetting, tweeking tear downs, man time and so on. HP cost money.

My opinions: A). Drop the HP and you drop the price by going to stock 289parts and putz around town with it. B). Buy a higher HP crate (with respectable warrantee) for a "drop in" and sell your block to cut corners. C). Get a KC high winding Windsor and go like hell. I like my BB but those Windsors are quick, dependable and have torque the 289 can't give you at a reasonable price. Even a tweeked 390 is not expensive and the blocks are available. I know guys with crates and "no issues" and guys with crate motors and lots of issues. Having said all that: 7 to 8 grand for a fresh 400HP SB "custom built motor" is not unrealistic in my opinion (regardless who you get it from). However; I would demand a build sheet and HP confirmation. Remember this: if it's built locally you can go to him and stick it up his bottom if there are any problems. There is a lot to be said for that. I've been to that movie too. Anyway; good luck with it. Gotta go.

Bernie

[Cashburn]

Don't always shop on price... there's a company that is always recommended because they have "great prices" but then you read the components and they are reusing cranks and don't actually own a dyno, just a "run stand". An Edelbrock carb is not a performance piece either.

$1,000 is a lot of money in the build phase but it often saves a lot more in time and $$$ down the road.

Cheap engines are cheap engines ... don't let anyone tell you differently.

[Cashburn]

While I'm up here on this soapbox... couple other things to watch out for:

Web site with the bait and switch. You get drawn if for the $5,900 price and then you say you want to add Cobra valve covers, a SCAT crank, aluminum heads, etc. and all this is added in and up... and you're over that other builder's price that included it already, but your on the phone and forgetting that total.

Watch out for the ignition wires. Don't know why but the better builders always seem to take the time to custom cut/fit ignition wires neatly and don't run'em all over like spaghetti ... and generally don't use yellow wires either

Finally ask to see their dyno and make sure a dyno tune is included and the "warranty" is on paper. A tune is such an effective tool and the only way you know their 400HP special is not a 250HP desktop dyno joker.

[Burnd]

Originally Posted by Cashburn

While I'm up here on this soapbox... couple other things to watch out for:

Web site with the bait and switch. You get drawn if for the $5,900 price and then you say you want to add Cobra valve covers, a SCAT crank, aluminum heads, etc. and all this is added in and up... and you're over that other builder's price that included it already, but your on the phone and forgetting that total.

Watch out for the ignition wires. Don't know why but the better builders always seem to take the time to custom cut/fit ignition wires neatly and don't run'em all over like spaghetti ... and generally don't use yellow wires either

Finally ask to see their dyno and make sure a dyno tune is included and the "warranty" is on paper. A tune is such an effective tool and the only way you know their 400HP special is not a 250HP desktop dyno joker.

Cash:
You got me going too. I was alluding to that philosophy and that's what i ment by no free rides. You generally get what you pay for but you don't have to go extravagant to get decent quality either. I don't have to spend 50 bucks to get a decent bottle of wine either. In fairness, not everyone has a deep pocket including me. I waited 30 years to do this. I have 2 seasons of racing and I haven't broken ANYTHING in my motor. I can't express how much that means, but a lot of guys at that tracks will tell you. I will estimate that 30% of all motors on any given day I see at the track, get broke that day. It's remarkable to me. I invested in quality components and I paid to make sure that EVERY surface on my block was square and met perfect tolerances. Nutten broke (YET). I am not going to get that in a "factory" crate motor. Factory being Ford Motor Corp. My local speed shop gets a fair amount of them with issues. I tend to believe a custom motor builder doing turnkey or his own "crates" is going to give you better quality than the high production lines. That being said: I agree with Cash. Too Cheap = cheap. Ya know; pay me now or pay me more later. Like I said before; I gotta go. You got me sucked into this discussion.

Bernie

[Dangerous Doug]

Thanks, guys. Bear in mind, I'm no cheap-o. I'm building an ERA and paid extra for the niceties of powder-coated frame and will go with the racing rear suspension, et cetera. Note that I am using the 289/302 SB Ford since it is "correct" for my 289 FIA body style.

I have a few other misgivings about this quote. First, my block is currently 0.030" over, but no lip (I have not measured taper). I bought it intending to take it 0.040" over max as recommended by all the resources I've read on the 289/302 blocks. Machine shop wants to bore it out to 0.060"---not due to need, but that taking it out another 0.005" then honing out another 0.005" would be too difficult. Also, discussed AFR heads, but got quoted DART (nothing against DART, BTW) and I assume some of that $3500 is porting and polishing heads that I didn't spec.

There is no dyno in the shop, as far as I can tell. The guys I'm talking to are a custom hot rod and machine shop---so they make their dough on machine work. All the parts seemed reasonably priced. There is no guarantee on the 400 hp. Nevertheless, these guys are highly recommended by several of the local hot rodders.

So, I'm rethinking this engine strategy. I don't want to sacrifice too much of what I want (hp wise, I'd like to be above 370 hp, I'm stuck on AFR heads...) but I don't want to throw good, hard-earned cash into unnessary machine work.

I'll have to give Keith Craft a call. Hhmm, I wonder what they'd quote me using my block...

[Dangerous Doug]

Talked to the builder and worked out some of the issues (revised to 0.040" over, AFR heads, hydraulic lifters). I still have to work out some numbers before this is going to make sense. 10 hours for machine work on the block alone sounds reasonable. 20 hours for engine assembly sounds a bit "long". That leaves 5 hours of quote for working the DART heads (porting, polishing, et cetera).

Hhmmm. How many hours should I expect a competent builder to spend putting together a long block assembly?

Any builders want to pipe in?

More to think about, more numbers to crunch...

DD

[froggyman]

You may want to go to a 331 stroker from Performance Engineering out of Ross, Ohio. Call Eric at 513-738-5001. You will not go wrong there.

Tons of experience and ethically to the core.

Juan

[lineslinger]

Those time/numbers you make note of sound pretty spot on.
Remember you are seeking big time HP out of a small block. These guys have to get it right the first time... otherwise the engine comes back and everyone is pi$$ed. There is a lot of detail work to be considered in your build and your builders have to deliver quality work and still maintain a reputation and a profit margin.
For instance you might think 20 hours for assembly is a little long...on the other hand they could always "hurry up and %#@! up" to meet a price instead of a level of quality, I know which I would prefer.
Engine building is as much an art as it is a science with a ton of details to be considered. I would advise you to keep your build "at home" if at all possible, the logistics of distance can get frustrating and expensive. My son and I really enjoyed visiting the machine shop where he got to watch/learn how components are prepped while he participated in some of the assembly, we started our build there and finished at home.
Keep working with the local boys, they must be doing something right to have earned their reputation and I bet they will continue to work with you to help your build fall within your budget... and still realize an expected level of quality. If you can't make it work with your first choice keep checking around, you will eventually find the right guy/shop, maybe not as well known as your first choice but there are a lot of quality options out there...sometimes it just takes research.

[kris-kincaid]

Doug, why don't you build it? A 289 is a pretty simple engine and if you take your time you can easily do it. Find a good machine shop to do the machine work, then you do the rest.

[rick50]

Keith Craft or because your in Cailf how about Mike LeFevre from Mitech he used to build them for Shelby
Welcome to Mitech Racing Engines

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

Just got my quote back from a local builder on my 289, and the quote looks extremely high to me ($7600 for a roller cam long block assembly, using my 289 core with a stock stroke). Target hp was 400. $3500 of the quote was for 35 hrs for labor (magnaflux, line bore, bore & hone, head work...)

I'm looking through the web and I'm finding complete engines for $7500 (though they are in the high 300's and not quite 400 hp, but they are complete flywheel to carb/ignition...), in some cases 347 strokers. I can get a 345 hp Ford crate for less than $4k.

In any event, I had thought that having a rebuildable core would save me some cash, and in the interest of domestic tranquility I'm trying to keep my Cobra build from spending out of control (pun intended).

So, recommendations from the rest of you? Go with a Ford crate engine? Find another builder? Any comments on Proformance, Gessford, Keith Craft, et cetera?

The floor is now open. Love to hear from you.

[Dangerous Doug]

Building it myself is certainly an option. I have the time and the aptitude, and doing it myself would fit under budget (which would make the wife happy---until I spend the excess on some other cool, trick thingy for my Cobra, instead of stuff for the house...heh, heh).

I find that in the SF Bay Area (and probably true for any Greater Metropolitan area) that shop time comes at a premium. $100/hr here. Go East to Modesto, it looks more like $60/hr. That's quite a premium.

I haven't decided yet which direction I'm going to take. I figure on getting some other quotes locally, looking outside the area a bit, and considering doing the build myself (in this case, I may have some stupid questions to ask, so brace yourself...).

Any other self builders want to offer some advice?

I love my Cobra. Even as it sits in my garage incomplete, the thing is a work of art. I cannot wait to hear it rumble. I don't, however, have a mountain of cash I can continually burn in pursuit of this, so the money I do spend, I need to spend wisely.

DD