Any 351 Cleveland guys out there - need to ID block and heads

[AK1234]

I suggest anyone owning a Ford motor theres this publication that I purchased back in 1988 .. " High Perfomance FORD Engine Parts Interchange " It has every part # for every Ford motor made .. except my XE Block. LOL

yes the 351 C forum is great ... they just psoted the results of my Buddies 351 Clevor dyno test 713 HP @ 7000 rpm's now thats a Ford Motor going in a Pantera.

[Burgs]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I need to find an overhead pedal box with a brake and clutch pedal. Any ideas?

Wilwood has a number of different options. This one is standard on the Hurricane kits.

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/005-...mtmc/index.asp

[767Jockey]

Ok guys, here's what I found:

Heads - other than the "2" on the upper rear corner of the head outside the valve cover, the only other numbers I can see (the engine is still in the car) are inside the valve cover in the rocker arm area. Once I took the valve cover off, I found sort of an oblong raised area with the numbers "2H30" inside it. I also saw a circle with the numbers 81357 in it. since the numbers are arranged around the circle, there's no way to tell which number is the first in the sequence. I started with 8 for no reason other than I had to start somewhere. Looking at Autoxmike's post, I don't think I have the right numbers for the heads, as the numbers and format don't seem to match anything. Where else should I look for numbers? Where on the head are the numbers I need?

Block - After removing the starter, I found two lines of numbers. The top line reads "D2AE-CA". Under that it says on a seperate line "2HI" or "2H1". I can't tell if the last character is the letter I or the number one.

What have I got here, guys? Are the heads and block a matched set as delivered from the factory? Please tell me everything you know, no matter how trivial, about this setup. Are the heads closed or open shamber? Is the block 2 or 4 bolt main? If the block contains it's original equipment pistons (which I suspect it does), what is the approximate compression ratio with these heads? What year and model did these heads and block come from? Is there anyting in particular good or bad about the block or heads? Are either of them considered to be desireable for any reason? Any and all info is greatly appreciated!
Doug

[autoxmike]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Block - After removing the starter, I found two lines of numbers. The top line reads "D2AE-CA". Under that it says on a seperate line "2HI" or "2H1". I can't tell if the last character is the letter I or the number one.

Is the block 2 or 4 bolt main?

From a quick internet search on the block casting #:

some 2-bolt blocks were manufactured from the same casting as the High Output 4-bolt blocks. Between 1971 and 1974 the production of 2-bolt and 4-bolt engines could have utilized the same casting (D2AE-CA) depending on what was delivered to the assembly line. This casting was called the Cobra Jet (CJ). In the case of the 4-bolt block, they were drilled, tapped, and stamped as a D3ZZ-A part number, were as the 2-bolt was not drilled or tapped, but stamped with a D1ZZ-A part number.

[autoxmike]

I think the casting number on the head may be in the underside of the exhaust port. Maybe use a mirror if the motor is still in the car?

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/s...=42578&cat=500

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by autoxmike

From a quick internet search on the block casting #:

some 2-bolt blocks were manufactured from the same casting as the High Output 4-bolt blocks. Between 1971 and 1974 the production of 2-bolt and 4-bolt engines could have utilized the same casting (D2AE-CA) depending on what was delivered to the assembly line. This casting was called the Cobra Jet (CJ). In the case of the 4-bolt block, they were drilled, tapped, and stamped as a D3ZZ-A part number, were as the 2-bolt was not drilled or tapped, but stamped with a D1ZZ-A part number.

So if I understand correctly, it's essentially the same as the 4 bolt main block, but with two bolt mains?

[autoxmike]

Sounds like it to me! First time I ran across this info was when I googled the casting number when I saw it in your post.

P.S. - 2 of my neighbors are 767 Jockeys

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

So if I understand correctly, it's essentially the same as the 4 bolt main block, but with two bolt mains?

Pretty much so, as pointed out they share the same casting numbers on some blocks. Now this is for a standard Cleveland block..there was mention of the XE block which is beefier all around, but regular production ones are even cast for the 4 bolt caps. The difference is, of course, the machining for the extra bolts. Any of the 2 bolt Cleveland blocks I have seen could be converted if someone needed to, in most cases it is unneccesary.

[AK1234]

I have this block in my 73 Pantera and its a 4 bolt block ... I did hear rumors that it has been spotted as a 2 bolt block ... so your on the right track ... also there have been discussions that these CJ blocks are of higher nickel content. Thats a good thing.

My advise .. is to put a set of Eldelbrock aluminum heads and matching intake and you'll have one hell of a ride.

[spl310]

Putting Cleveland heads on a Windsor block basically gives you a poor man's Boss 302. As many have said, the sewer pipes of the 4bbl heads are wasted on the street - you actually develop more useful power out of the 2bbl heads. I recall seeing photos of a 4bbl head that had the ports filled to be optimized for flow - they were reduced in size substantially.

[mrmustang]

The good news is that the block is a 351HO/CJ variety with the 4 bolt main bearings. 1972 date code would make it a 8:6:1 compression, nodular iron crank with cast pistons (if the short block was left stock). Cylinder heads are a little more tricky as there are several different varieties that Ford had...Of course with that said, they might (might) be the D1ZE-DA CJ heads if the original builder stuck with the matching set. The date codes are within 30 days of each other which makes me believe that they are the CJ heads, but without checking the actual casting numbers I am not 100% sure right now. Most likely the 74CC 4V heads with an intake valve size of 1.71" and an exhaust port measuring 2.00"X1.74" . Really need the casting numbers off the heads so we can determine exactly what they are though....All in all a nice platform to build up a killer engine unless of course that has already been done....Any chance that the seller has dyno numbers on it? perhaps before you pull the motor you might want to speak with Sal about some chassis dyno time to see what the engine is putting out to the rear wheels, you can then decide if it's enough for your needs and go from there.........


Bill S.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

The good news is that the block is a 351HO/CJ variety with the 4 bolt main bearings. 1972 date code would make it a 8:6:1 compression, nodular iron crank with cast pistons (if the short block was left stock). Cylinder heads are a little more tricky as there are several different varieties that Ford had...Of course with that said, they might (might) be the D1ZE-DA CJ heads if the original builder stuck with the matching set. The date codes are within 30 days of each other which makes me believe that they are the CJ heads, but without checking the actual casting numbers I am not 100% sure right now. Most likely the 74CC 4V heads with an intake valve size of 1.71" and an exhaust port measuring 2.00"X1.74" . Really need the casting numbers off the heads so we can determine exactly what they are though....All in all a nice platform to build up a killer engine unless of course that has already been done....Any chance that the seller has dyno numbers on it? perhaps before you pull the motor you might want to speak with Sal about some chassis dyno time to see what the engine is putting out to the rear wheels, you can then decide if it's enough for your needs and go from there.........


Bill S.

Thanks, Bill. I can't seem to find any numbers on the heads other than these.
Where on the head will I find these numbers? I was surprised with the block number - as an old Chevy guy, the numbers there tell you exactly what the block is and what it came from. No such thing on Ford's huh? I wanted to stop by Sal's, but after I get the car back together. I'm going to run the Cleveland anyway, at lease for a while. I want to stop by Sal's when it's done and have him dyno tune the finished product. That OK with you, Sal?

I doubt the heads are 4V, as they have a big 2 in the back corner just past the valve cover surface. That would make them 2V heads, no? Ah, no sence guessing - I'l have the motor out and dissasembled hopefull by the end of the week, and we'll all see what the deal is. Thanks, Bill!
Doug

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I want to stop by Sal's when it's done and have him dyno tune the finished product. That OK with you, Sal?

Absolutely.

[AK1234]

The numbers you are looking for are under the intake ports .. you may have to remove the intake manifold to read them with a mirror.

If you have a D2AE block with 2V heads. ... thats a comination someone put together .... you may be in luck and need to do nothing but clean up the motor and reseal it so you dont ned up with a leaker.

I heard a comment of a POOR MANS BOSS 302 ... the new CLEVORS are more like a RICH MANS BOSS 302 ... the price of the head and intake packages in todays market are very costly and the Cubes being produced are 427 compared the the POOR BOSS 302.... I just seen one dyno'd at 713 hp by MME. Not TOO POOR at all.

[woody1]

Being a cleveland junky and having a massive stash of the stuff, I can give a little insight into them. The 4vcc head when the intake is epoxied and the exhaust floor welded up is better than 95% of common aftermarket windsor heads. Forget flow numbers, it's all in the canted valve. As for the 2bbl heads, the only 2bbl I would ever consider is the closed chamber aussie head. Im MAX ported configuration they are only good enough to sustain 500hp MAX, the us 2bbl open heads IMO are useless to use. You can use 4bbl cc heads with minor work on the street. I get so tired of hearing they are no good, produce no tq etc etc. I have used them for years on the street.

As for the blocks, the 4 bolt is no better than the 2 bolt, I have ran each one to 8900+ rpm drag racing for seasons, they both lived fine. If you are opposed to using a 4vcc head on the street, use the aussie 2vcc head.

As for clevors, your intake choices are many since you can run intake plates still made by price motorsports, if you want a track boss intake from the 80's I just talked to the owner and he still has a basement full of them.

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

The good news is that the block is a 351HO/CJ variety with the 4 bolt main bearings.
Bill S.

I didn't see any post about pulling the pan and actually seeing the 4 bolts, so
that isn't neccesarily so. I have 6 Cleveland blocks, 4 have that casting # and only 1 is 4 bolt. The rest are only 2 bolts, that is a pretty standard casting number of that year block. If you pull the pan and there are 4 bolts, good, but not better...at least structurally. It IS worth more if you are wanting to sell it, but I haven't broke a block since I started running them in the early 70s. My Deuce just took a thrashing at R&G a couple moonths ago and didn't even miss a beat, it's only a 2 bolt.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Woodz428

I didn't see any post about pulling the pan and actually seeing the 4 bolts, so
that isn't neccesarily so. I have 6 Cleveland blocks, 4 have that casting # and only 1 is 4 bolt. The rest are only 2 bolts, that is a pretty standard casting number of that year block. If you pull the pan and there are 4 bolts, good, but not better...at least structurally. It IS worth more if you are wanting to sell it, but I haven't broke a block since I started running them in the early 70s. My Deuce just took a thrashing at R&G a couple moonths ago and didn't even miss a beat, it's only a 2 bolt.

I've got SO much work to do on this car it's going to be a while until I get to the engine and actually see what's in it. Right now it's on a stand in the garage covered and out of the way - I haven't taken the pan off yet. I don't think I'm even going to get the car running this year. We'll see. I'd rather take my time and do it right than rush and mess it up. I'm doing everything alone, so that takes more time as well. Thanks for all the input, guys, on this and so many other issues. I'll let you know what I find when I open the engine up.