Mechanical Lifters W/Roller Rockers

[LMH]

Hey all
I've built a number of engines but never used mechanical lifters with roller rockers. I originally planned to use mechanical roller lifters but have read of a number of problems owners had using them on street engines. So I now plan to use mech flat lifters (unless someone knows of a solid roller that stays together!) but wonder about the rockers.
Will they stay together with street use? (they are high quality SS roller rockers) What's your experience with this combo, good or bad?
Thanks all!
Larry

[Excaliber]

I had a roller go flat and it wiped the cam in about 8,000 miles, that was the old style classic rollers installed some years ago. I understand there are now 'oil pressure' fed rollers that reduce the problem of lack of oiling on a street car. The old method relied on 'splash' and high rpm to get the job done. I would GUESS the new pressure fed rollers require an engine that can also run hydraulic lifters and this is how they are pressure feed?

Original side oilers could NOT run hydraulic lifters, as an example. I am currently running flat tappet standard lifters even though my side oiler block (1968) could run hydraulic lifters or pressure fed rollers.

NOTE: These modern rollers are comparativly expensive and most people opt for hydraulic rollers instead, which are also 'not cheap'. Classic flat tappet solid lifters are a bargin, all things considered.

[Rick Parker]

Rock On! they will work well. Solid Mechanical lifters/tappets with Roller rockers are a great combination. Absolutely

[Tony Radford]

My Windsor stroker was built by Southern Automotive with Erson billet aluminum roller rockers and an Elgin solid, flat tappet cam. It holds an adjustment very well. Make sure you get nice set of rockers.

[LMH]

Thanks guys!
I have CompCams Stainless Hi-Tech roller rockers.
I wish there was more info/improvments about solid roller lifters in street engines but what I've read scares me. Looks like it will work just fine to use solid flat lifters. THX!
Larry

[olddog]

I'm pretty sure Ford went to hydraulic roller lifters in the 1980s in the 5.0 and maybe the 351 W as well. I don't understand why solid rollers would be that much different. They been around in hot rod use almost as long as I can remember.

I can see why a splash only FE block might have a problem, but I wouldn't think a SB would.

Am I missing something?

[LMH]

The problem with solid rollers is they don't oil well at lower rpm, like a street engine typically sees. That's what I've read about while doing some research. This MAY have been addressed with the newer solid roller lifters but do I want to take that chance is the question.
I like the idea of less friction in the roller with the RPM potential of a solid lifter, (I also like the chatter but would NEVER pick a cam based on it's sound!) but is it going to stay together in an engine that sees street use as well as track use... not sure. Safer to just use the solid flat tappet.
Larry

[woody1]

I have used solid rollers in all my 550+ inch big block street motors for years, also have used hyd rollers in a ton of small blocks, with the hydraulic rollers nowadays there really is no reason to give up that hp by running a solid flat or hyd flat.

[Excaliber]

Oiling problems to the ROLLER bearings of a solid roller lifter is generally what the problem is. It's not about an FE, this is about ANY engine running solid rollers. They simply don't get enough oil at low rpm, typical of street use. It's the NEW solid rollers that address the oiling problem assuming your block\oiling system can work with them.

Why go with hydraulic rollers? Lots of people do, I personally just don't like hydraulic lifters of any kind. I feel that solid lifters help you 'keep in touch' with your motor, it makes for a more 'personal' experience for me. IF I was going to run solid rollers today I'd go for the best qaulity ($$$) and most modern system I could get my hands on. Hydraulic rollers aren't exactly cheap either! I spent enough money on my motor all ready so I opted for flat tappet for two reasons:
1. Thats what it was 'back in the day', I wanted to duplicate that experience.
2. Saved a ton of money (always nice).

[olddog]

Well I haven't any personal experiance with mechanical roller lifters, and honestly this is the first I ever heard of any problem in a SB Ford. FE yes, but not SB. I'm sure there is no problem with hydraulic roller lifters in the SB Ford, as the factory installed them for a decade.

In terms of HP, the roller lifter has a big advantage in that it can ramp the valve open and closed quicker, which yields more time that the valve is completely open. So for the same duration as a flat tappet, the roller cam will flow more air, thus more HP.

As for hydraulic lifters, they have come a long way. The old problems of pump up was ususally weak valve springs and too thick of oil anyway. Plenty of engines are running 8000+ rpm with hydraulic lifters. Some special lifters advertise that at low rpm they blead down and affectively reduce the duration at the valve, which is supposed to give better low rpm torque than a standard lifter.

Just some things to think about before you leap.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by LMH

Safer to just use the solid flat tappet.

Look up all the talk about wipping cam lobes on break in with flat tappet. I cannot think of it right now, but an additive has been removed from auto oil, resulting in lots of wiped cam lobes. People use light springs (or remove inner if dual springs) to break in the cam and then change them (put them back). I even saw short ratio rocker arms advertised for cam break in.

Roller lifters do not have this problem.

[woody1]

Originally Posted by olddog

I cannot think of it right now, but an additive has been removed from auto oil, resulting in lots of wiped cam lobes.

Zinc and always use GM EOS additive when breaking in a typical cast core hyd or solid flat

[Excaliber]

You generally make or break the cam in the first 30 minutes (flat tappet), get it right or wipe it.

[LMH]

On an FE, are the lifters oiled by splash or galley?
Larry

[Excaliber]

Limited galley oil feed before '68, so solids were the only option on most FE's. 1968 and up could run either hydraulic or solid.

BUT, the problem with solid rollers is the tiny roller bearings that support the roller wheel on the end of the lifter. How do you pressure feed oil to those bearings? In the past, early rollers, there was no way, they relied on splash only. More modern rollers have a method to deliver pressure fed oil to the roller bearings through the lifter itself. These new rollers are much more expensive than standard 'splash' fed rollers, but that may be changing as they become more readily available.

[LMH]

Interesting. This will be in a Dart block BTW.
I'm going to do some more searching before I build. A full roller valve train is sure the way to go if it'll hold up and maybe the problems I've read about were in FE's. More study!
Larry

[Excaliber]

Likley the problems you've read about were related to solid rollers in general, and of course that would cover FE's more than other motors here on Club Cobra. The basic principles apply to all blocks, how you gonna oil the roller is the question!

[LMH]

Yeah, I think your right.
The Dart block advertises "Dual crossovers allow oil flow to be metered with restrictors for roller lifter cams and/or roller rocker arms to reduce oil flow and windage".
I think I'll call/email them and see about using solid rollers in their block and how they oil the lifters. Might shed some light on the plan.
Larry

[Excaliber]

I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it, but where does all that oil go after it leaves the roller bearings? It would have to be carefully metered for just the right amount and you sure don't want to flood the bottom end to much...

[LMH]

Yeah, can you imagine all that oil hitting the crank! Might as well put a brake on the end it!
I'll post what Dart has to say.
Larry